Attacking Darius:

kzt wrote:You'd think so. What's the GDP of Afghanistan vs the US? Would you call General White Rage, Defense Secretary Extremist Conspiracy and President Corn Pop more or less competent then the SLN/SL?

I don't think that's quote analogous.

First, comparing a smaller entity trying to invade and destroy a Dyson sphere would be like the Taliban invading and conquering the US home land. That did not happen and I would say could not have happened. Yes, they tried asymmetric warfare, but that didn't make a perceptible impact on the US GDP nor on its armed forces.

Second, the US occupation in Afghanistan was intended to be state-building and indeed that was unsuccessful. For our scenario, it would be like trying to overthrow the Onion and liberate Darius, creating a democratic government with no galactic-genocidal plans. That could be successful or not, and given the fact that the Harrington Plan was based on exactly not giving the SL the idea that they'd want a rematch, I'm pretty sure this will come up again when it comes to the MAlign and Darius.

munroburton wrote:It depends what sort of dyson sphere/swarm we're talking about here. The most basic type is just solar collectors designed to tap the full output of a star. Beyond Martian orbit, solar irradiance drops below 500 watt per square metre, at Earth it's 1300 and at Mercury it's over 9,000. So it's more efficient to make them as small as your solar technology permits - if the purpose is energy collection.

The orbit radius will be determined by either the efficiency of energy conversion/collection of the material in question or by the mechanics themselves. For example, there's a location where the light pressure from the sunlight will balance the gravitational pull of the Sun. That's a stable balance: if the collector drifts outwards, the light pressure drops, so it falls back in; if it drifts inwards, the light pressure increases and it gets pushed back out.

I have no clue where that would be because it depends on the material of the collector and how much each collector masses.

If you have an inhabited planet in that system, you're probably going to want your collectors outside its orbit, so they don't block the star and plunge the planet into an ice age.

If we're going up to a sphere where trillions or quadrillions of people can live on the interior surface, it needs to be in the goldilocks zone. Depending on the star type, this can vary widely but IIRC one of those at 1 AU with a thickness of 10km requires approximately 2 masses of Sol. I imagine that would definitely mess with the hyper limit.

The thing is that this is a distributed mass in a shell. Unless you're VERY far away from it, you can't approximate it to a point source, like we do with the Sun or with planets.

I doubt David will invent and solve the differential equations necessary to calculate this.

The other thing keeping dyson radius down is that bigger stars burn up quicker. If your civilisation is making the colossal investment of disassembling two other stars to build a solid sphere, might as well do it around a star which is going to last hundreds of billions of years rather than millions.

Indeed. Go for a K-type star that is going to last tens of billions of years, or even a red dwarf that may last for a trillion. But you don't have to choose right now. You can go for an O- or B-type giant star. They exist and are producing tremendous amounts of energy. The dwarf stars aren't going to suddenly disappear, so you may as well go for the Oh Be ones while they exist for the next hundred million years or two. (and you can extend their lifetimes too, see Isaac Arthur's video on "Colonising Giant Stars")

In any case, a solid shell is unnecessary. Even if you could overcome its three biggest problems that our science can't right now (namely, the amount of mass, the necessary strength of the material, and that it is an unstable setup), there's no point in wanting to do it. Just do a swarm.

See also Larry Niven and Greg Benford's take on "Big Dumb Object" / "Big Smart Object" (https://www.torforgeblog.com/2012/10/01/big-smart-objects/, https://www.analogsf.com/assets/6/6/ScienceFact_BigSmartObjects_Benford_Nive.pdf), where they come up with a solid, actively-maintained bowl.

I caused a big ruckus when I said the MA could destroy a Dyson sphere at 75% completion. Jonathan, I indeed was thinking that the MA would wait until the Spiders were complete before attacking, which means the attack would be the MBS's first encounter with them as before. And I am sure the operation would have brought along many support ships/colliers. ThinksMarkedly, I agree it would be a small spider bite, but over the course of the operation, many small bites. But I agree, a 75% complete sphere would be a tall task to destroy. But then, with all of their endless wars, the MBS would never have reached 75% of completion. But then, kzt's solution would be devastating.

There are several reasons why I suggested the MA may build a Dyson sphere. One I have already listed as being because they are hidden, thus sheltered from the ravaging destruction of many wars. Another reason is because I remembered that one of the major requirements of a civilization that accomplishes such a great feat is an enormous intelligence.

I keep saying how intelligent the MA is. And many of you deny it and justify it by pointing out their many mistakes. But I don't think any of you would want to take on a navy with a horde of Salamanders in the mix.

At any rate, it is posited that the intelligence of any civilization that can tackle a Dyson sphere would have to fit somewhere on the Kardashev scale. The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement based on the amount of energy it is able to use.

A Type I civilization, also called a planetary civilization, can use and store all of the energy available on its planet.

A Type II civilization, also called a stellar civilization, can use and control energy at the scale of its planetary system.

A Type III civilization, also called a galactic civilization, can control energy at the scale of its entire host galaxy.

All of the HV thus far is probably no more advanced than Type I. However, that is not to say that a superior intellect might not develop some use for being able to harness the full power of the sun. Think of the weapons potential of that much energy. Repressor beams originally developed to deflect or capture asteroids would tear missiles and warships to shreds. Their energy weapons would be unthinkable. If completed, the capabilities of a Dyson sphere should be formidable having that much energy on tap.

I hesitate to place a limit on the type of sphere, be it a full up fully enclosed sphere or a swarm. I'd like to keep the options open. Just because humanity presently as a species can't comprehend having a completely enclosed structure doesn't mean a Type III alien species can't.

Being able to pick your real estate may be a bonus, but probably won't be a luxury, so, a red dwarf may be out of the question. But the additional resources demanded of a fully enclosed sphere makes me think that any species would make sure the radius of such a sphere would exceed the envelope of a dying star. Which, in the case of the mass of our own sun, would swell to encompass earth. Fifty percent of the mass of our own sun would be ejected exposing the core - causing a nebula. How such a civilization would then cope with such a massive ejection of gas and dust is beyond me.

One other thing, a completely enclosed sun would be detrimental to a planet, blocking out its sun. However, if that planet or planets is already uninhabitable then the loss is nothing. And the planet would then be free to be destroyed for its resources. The MA may have such a system in addition to the Darius System, which could be the final Houdini for the Alphas.

Before getting too carried away with thoughts of a MAlign Dyson Sphere at Darius, remember that they only found and started colonizing the system about 200 years ago. (And doing so with only what resources they could covertly divert from known systems under their influence or control)
That's simply not enough time to ramp up their industry to the point of building a Dyson sphere (i.e. to a industrial output that would presumably at least rival the entire SLN combined).

cthia wrote:I caused a big ruckus when I said the MA could destroy a Dyson sphere at 75% completion. Jonathan, I indeed was thinking that the MA would wait until the Spiders were complete before attacking, which means the attack would be the MBS's first encounter with them as before. And I am sure the operation would have brought along many support ships/colliers. ThinksMarkedly, I agree it would be a small spider bite, but over the course of the operation, many small bites. But I agree, a 75% complete sphere would be a tall task to destroy. But then, with all of their endless wars, the MBS would never have reached 75% of completion. But then, kzt's solution would be devastating.

There are several reasons why I suggested the MA may build a Dyson sphere. One I have already listed as being because they are hidden, thus sheltered from the ravaging destruction of many wars. Another reason is because I remembered that one of the major requirements of a civilization that accomplishes such a great feat is an enormous intelligence.

I keep saying how intelligent the MA is. And many of you deny it and justify it by pointing out their many mistakes. But I don't think any of you would want to take on a navy with a horde of Salamanders in the mix.

At any rate, it is posited that the intelligence of any civilization that can tackle a Dyson sphere would have to fit somewhere on the Kardashev scale. The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement based on the amount of energy it is able to use.

A Type I civilization, also called a planetary civilization, can use and store all of the energy available on its planet.

A Type II civilization, also called a stellar civilization, can use and control energy at the scale of its planetary system.

A Type III civilization, also called a galactic civilization, can control energy at the scale of its entire host galaxy.

All of the HV thus far is probably no more advanced than Type I. However, that is not to say that a superior intellect might not develop some use for being able to harness the full power of the sun. Think of the weapons potential of that much energy. Repressor beams originally developed to deflect or capture asteroids would tear missiles and warships to shreds. Their energy weapons would be unthinkable. If completed, the capabilities of a Dyson sphere should be formidable having that much energy on tap.

I hesitate to place a limit on the type of sphere, be it a full up fully enclosed sphere or a swarm. I'd like to keep the options open. Just because humanity presently as a species can't comprehend having a completely enclosed structure doesn't mean a Type III alien species can't.

Being able to pick your real estate may be a bonus, but probably won't be a luxury, so, a red dwarf may be out of the question. But the additional resources demanded of a fully enclosed sphere makes me think that any species would make sure the radius of such a sphere would exceed the envelope of a dying star. Which, in the case of the mass of our own sun, would swell to encompass earth. Fifty percent of the mass of our own sun would be ejected exposing the core - causing a nebula. How such a civilization would then cope with such a massive ejection of gas and dust is beyond me.

One other thing, a completely enclosed sun would be detrimental to a planet, blocking out its sun. However, if that planet or planets is already uninhabitable then the loss is nothing. And the planet would then be free to be destroyed for its resources. The MA may have such a system in addition to the Darius System, which could be the final Houdini for the Alphas.

I'll point out again that the cost of even a partial swarm is centuries of the GDP of the entire Honorverse and millennia of GDP of a single system polity. That the Malign would be seriously considering this as an alternative leans to the absurdist.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:I caused a big ruckus when I said the MA could destroy a Dyson sphere at 75% completion. Jonathan, I indeed was thinking that the MA would wait until the Spiders were complete before attacking, which means the attack would be the MBS's first encounter with them as before. And I am sure the operation would have brought along many support ships/colliers. ThinksMarkedly, I agree it would be a small spider bite, but over the course of the operation, many small bites. But I agree, a 75% complete sphere would be a tall task to destroy. But then, with all of their endless wars, the MBS would never have reached 75% of completion. But then, kzt's solution would be devastating.

There are several reasons why I suggested the MA may build a Dyson sphere. One I have already listed as being because they are hidden, thus sheltered from the ravaging destruction of many wars. Another reason is because I remembered that one of the major requirements of a civilization that accomplishes such a great feat is an enormous intelligence.

I keep saying how intelligent the MA is. And many of you deny it and justify it by pointing out their many mistakes. But I don't think any of you would want to take on a navy with a horde of Salamanders in the mix.

At any rate, it is posited that the intelligence of any civilization that can tackle a Dyson sphere would have to fit somewhere on the Kardashev scale. The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement based on the amount of energy it is able to use.

A Type I civilization, also called a planetary civilization, can use and store all of the energy available on its planet.

A Type II civilization, also called a stellar civilization, can use and control energy at the scale of its planetary system.

A Type III civilization, also called a galactic civilization, can control energy at the scale of its entire host galaxy.

All of the HV thus far is probably no more advanced than Type I. However, that is not to say that a superior intellect might not develop some use for being able to harness the full power of the sun. Think of the weapons potential of that much energy. Repressor beams originally developed to deflect or capture asteroids would tear missiles and warships to shreds. Their energy weapons would be unthinkable. If completed, the capabilities of a Dyson sphere should be formidable having that much energy on tap.

I hesitate to place a limit on the type of sphere, be it a full up fully enclosed sphere or a swarm. I'd like to keep the options open. Just because humanity presently as a species can't comprehend having a completely enclosed structure doesn't mean a Type III alien species can't.

Being able to pick your real estate may be a bonus, but probably won't be a luxury, so, a red dwarf may be out of the question. But the additional resources demanded of a fully enclosed sphere makes me think that any species would make sure the radius of such a sphere would exceed the envelope of a dying star. Which, in the case of the mass of our own sun, would swell to encompass earth. Fifty percent of the mass of our own sun would be ejected exposing the core - causing a nebula. How such a civilization would then cope with such a massive ejection of gas and dust is beyond me.

One other thing, a completely enclosed sun would be detrimental to a planet, blocking out its sun. However, if that planet or planets is already uninhabitable then the loss is nothing. And the planet would then be free to be destroyed for its resources. The MA may have such a system in addition to the Darius System, which could be the final Houdini for the Alphas.

I'll point out again that the cost of even a partial swarm is centuries of the GDP of the entire Honorverse and millennia of GDP of a single system polity. That the Malign would be seriously considering this as an alternative leans to the absurdist.

Yadda yadda yadda. Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Everybody keeps saying the same thing and I keep falling asleep from boredom. Besides, the author can summon a millennia with the magic wave of the ink in his magic wand. Regardless, you keep making the mistake of judging the MAlign by the same meter stick used on traditional systems. You simply can't do that. Every other system's GDP fits the general equations governing an economy. The MA's don't. The MA has workers who are grown from test tubes and designed for hard work. They don't have a union, they don't have eight hour work days, they don't go on strike, and they are happy. There are no OSHA rules and regulations, and they are replaced at the push of a button. Your traditional equations for a flourishing economy can be flushed out of the airlock. One man's absurdity is what another man will beat him over the head with.

Which brings me to ...

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:They could have built a Dyson sphere or some function of it. Costly, yes. Very costly. And unlikely. But I never boarded the bus that the MA were financially hamstrung. When you are tapping into your neighbor's energy grid, the cost of energy doesn't matter. The MA may have been channeling funds and materials from the wasteful SL for centuries. And the RF systems may have been sending unfettered funds home unchecked for centuries as well.

The RF systems have certain parts of their governments subverted, but their full governments and population aren't within the Onion or even necessarily sympathetic to the MAlign plan (much less its means).

That sharply limits how much funding those deep cover plants could have funneled out of their system GDP and into MAlign hands. A bit of dark funding slipped that way, sure. But providing any significant part of their GPD in support of the MAlign would be such a vast black hole of disappearing funds that the scandal could likely topple the government.

These places aren't iron fisted military dictatorships; the MAlign plants aren't unquestionable supreme rulers and so don't have unlimited power to use to system economic muscles as they like. (After all an iron fisted military dictatorship would be an ineffective at being the shining beacon that can be the nucleus for attracting disaffected ex-League worlds; and that's their primary mission)


And even if the MAline did have control of a few dictatorships they could fully exploit - having enough GDP disappearing to meaningfully fund the kind of military forces we're talking about would have eventually attracted attention -- which could have let to the MAlign's premature exposure. Money transfer, especially on that scale, creates paper trails and those can lead to exposure. (After all it doesn't do much good to move a stack of untracable credit chips to Darius when the funds are meaningless there - to take advantage of external funding you've got to use it to buy things from external markets and ship them into your hidden domestic market -- creating even more paper trails)


Better to have use the centuries to build up their own internal economic and financial strength; taking only very minimal seed corn from the cover Mesan transtellars or any RF friends. Amounts of funding and materials too small, and too far in the past, to be likely to attract attention.

Your imagination is too limited. Stealing thousands to millions of dollars from thousands of systems over centuries adds up. Besides, crooked governments make it far too easy to do so, even if "compulsion" isn't an option. But, even supposedly straight governments will make a deal with the devil to obtain their own selfish means. Cartels got rich off of our own government which allowed the sell of drugs in this country to buy weapons to sponsor US backed wars. Who is to say that billions of dollars were not made by the MA on illegal ventures on thousands of worlds. Once the money is made, it just needs to be laundered. Once it is laundered, the money is clean. Everyone keeps harping on the fact that the HV's currency wouldn't be useful in the Darius System. That isn't true because Darius' currency also would be worthless in the HV. Yet, the MA is operating everywhere in the HV, and their agents and sleepers need legitimate currency to spend in the HV. Many businesses in the HV are most likely fronts for MAlign enterprises. And that requires HV money to establish. Bribes also require HV money. Money is probably so easily and so frequently laundered in the HV that they have coinops operating the washers. Isn't there a city of Maytag with a Suds Emporium located on Erewhon? I wonder what they're really washing, and how many others exist in the HV. Let's also not rule out the HV equivalent of Swedish bank accounts.

At any rate, theft represents a wide range of possibilities to the resourceful - which the MAlign is. And to the fearless - which the MAlign is. And to the intelligent imaginative soul. Ditto. Heck, even Hauptman taught us that illegal trades and practices are found everywhere. Even legitimate businesses could have made the MA a fortune. With their lead in genetic research and augmentations, they should have many patents throughout the HV. Least of which is in the field of medicine. The MA should be able to acquire lots of HV goods with technically no cost to themselves. Besides, you seem to think in terms of currency only, and not also goods and services.

The entire combined industrial output of every system in the entire Honorverse wouldn't be sufficient to build a Dyson sphere in a mere 2 centuries.

And if you posit that the MAlign has vastly more industrial capability than the entire rest of the Honorverse combined, why would they "waste" it on a Dyson sphere when a tiny fraction of that same industrial output would have let them accomplish their long term goal of taking over the universe, unleashing unlimited genetic modifications, and rubbing Beowulf's nose in it all? (If by no other means than by building a navy so large it would would make the SLN look like a couple armed rowboats trying to guard a harbor)

Jonathan_S wrote:The entire combined industrial output of every system in the entire Honorverse wouldn't be sufficient to build a Dyson sphere in a mere 2 centuries.

And if you posit that the MAlign has vastly more industrial capability than the entire rest of the Honorverse combined, why would they "waste" it on a Dyson sphere when a tiny fraction of that same industrial output would have let them accomplish their long term goal of taking over the universe, unleashing unlimited genetic modifications, and rubbing Beowulf's nose in it all? (If by no other means than by building a navy so large it would would make the SLN look like a couple armed rowboats trying to guard a harbor)

I won't argue any of that, and I agree. Actually, I don't think the technological prowess exists in the HV period. But that is just my take on it. I suggested the MAlign, because, well, they are Alphas. I think they have the intellect even if they don't have the time. The rest of the HV, no, IMO.

But then, the time factor can be waved away by the author. After the final confrontation and the Alphas escape, they can resurface in centuries. At any rate, I didn't really expect the discussion on Dyson Spheres to get this far. I thought the idea is better suited for TM's Fake Spoiler thread. However, time can accomplish all things. Time. And we all know that God controls time. God, in this case, runsforcelery.

But as far as why? The Dyson Sphere could be a necessity to remain hidden in a system whose planets are uninhabitable.

The gravitational field of a uniform spherical shell of mass M, and of a point mass of mass M, at points outside the shell, are the same. (Thank you, Karl Friedrich Gauss).

Inside the spherical shell, the gravitational field due to the shell is zero, and the gravitational potential energy is a constant. (Edgar Rice Burroughs got this one wrong in his hollow earth series.)