Was this out of character for Honor?

zyffyr wrote:

cthia wrote:But the data feed is one of the biggest flies in the ointment I thought. But then, when the data feed was altered once before when Honor and crew escaped Tepes I wondered how that could be hidden. Time stamps and continuity can easily point to altered or doctored recordings. However, I thought the biggest problems would come from someone on the crew who would trade favors with the regime in return for a family member in trouble with the Committee or something of that nature. Or simply out of fear of the regime during their version of the Spanish Inquisition. Bad seeds on the ship would do it in a heartbeat. Crew members who were cut from the same cloth as Randy Steilman.

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There is no data feed for State Sec to scrutinize. The ship is not something they are getting back, and there is simply no way Honor or her people are letting anyone bring back recordings that may potentially come back to bite them in the posterior - Manties may be arrogant, but they are mostly competent. The only people likely to have the info all have a vested interest in keeping quiet.

The only source for that bit of intel is going to be stealing it from the RMN. Possible, but sufficiently unlikely as to be unworthy of concern.

You are correct. For some reason I was thinking that Vaubon wasn't alone and only she went to the aid of Wayfarer. But I was in error. Vaubon was operating alone. And if she wasn't alone, her cohorts would have engaged Wayfarer. Doh!

saber964 wrote:

cthia wrote:BTW, from where did Shannon obtain all of her technical skills?

She's probably from a recent conquest that hadn't turned its education system into oatmeal

Now that is truly interesting, and it would explain why I never thought Haven could have produced someone like Shannon. She was always too smart and technically savvy to be a Peep. But she sure as hell was as loyal as any native Havenite, so I dunno.

cthia wrote:BTW, from where did Shannon obtain all of her technical skills?

saber964 wrote:She's probably from a recent conquest that hadn't turned its education system into oatmeal

cthia wrote:Now that is truly interesting, and it would explain why I never thought Haven could have produced someone like Shannon. She was always too smart and technically savvy to be a Peep. But she sure as hell was as loyal as any native Havenite, so I dunno.

There's no reason she couldn't be a native Havenite or from one of the oldest colonies. The quality education system in the PRH still existed, just not in enough quantity to provide access to all citizens. Plus, there wasn't an incentive to make use of that education system, if everyone was on the Dole. Though from what we saw of the living conditions in Our Sacred Honor, I doubt the majority population actually thought that it was ok to simply live on the Dole, but instead had no choice.

If Shannon was a one-in-a-billion case and I think we will all agree she is, the PRH should still produce 1 of her every decade or so! Those people, by their very nature, will not be content with their lot in life and will seek more learning. She applied herself. I expect if we had more of her back story, we'd find she was self-taught, left home early for where she could find the opportunity to learn, and she sought the postings that would allow her that. In fact, the PN may have been one of the few places where a common-born (non-Legislaturalist) person could actually effect change in their lives.

And unlike StateSec thugs aboard PNS Tepes, she actually went through the extra effort to learn how the systems she worked with worked. That would also explain how she could go from Tac Witch to designing stuff.

Also from Our Sacred Honor, we know there was a thriving underground library and there was still quite a bit of institutional knowledge left. Eloise is likely much older than Shannon, so she had parents who had lived much freer and more educated lives, but the same could apply to Shannon's grandparents.

There's also the possibility that the Forakers were "middle class," whatever that may mean in the PRH. The entire population can't be uneducated. At the very least, there needed to be some educational retention for shipbuilding, which happens to be the area she got her education on.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:BTW, from where did Shannon obtain all of her technical skills?

saber964 wrote:She's probably from a recent conquest that hadn't turned its education system into oatmeal

cthia wrote:Now that is truly interesting, and it would explain why I never thought Haven could have produced someone like Shannon. She was always too smart and technically savvy to be a Peep. But she sure as hell was as loyal as any native Havenite, so I dunno.

There's no reason she couldn't be a native Havenite or from one of the oldest colonies. The quality education system in the PRH still existed, just not in enough quantity to provide access to all citizens. Plus, there wasn't an incentive to make use of that education system, if everyone was on the Dole. Though from what we saw of the living conditions in Our Sacred Honor, I doubt the majority population actually thought that it was ok to simply live on the Dole, but instead had no choice.

If Shannon was a one-in-a-billion case and I think we will all agree she is, the PRH should still produce 1 of her every decade or so! Those people, by their very nature, will not be content with their lot in life and will seek more learning. She applied herself. I expect if we had more of her back story, we'd find she was self-taught, left home early for where she could find the opportunity to learn, and she sought the postings that would allow her that. In fact, the PN may have been one of the few places where a common-born (non-Legislaturalist) person could actually effect change in their lives.

And unlike StateSec thugs aboard PNS Tepes, she actually went through the extra effort to learn how the systems she worked with worked. That would also explain how she could go from Tac Witch to designing stuff.

Also from Our Sacred Honor, we know there was a thriving underground library and there was still quite a bit of institutional knowledge left. Eloise is likely much older than Shannon, so she had parents who had lived much freer and more educated lives, but the same could apply to Shannon's grandparents.

There's also the possibility that the Forakers were "middle class," whatever that may mean in the PRH. The entire population can't be uneducated. At the very least, there needed to be some educational retention for shipbuilding, which happens to be the area she got her education on.

I certainly agree with the gist of the likely personal profile you've submitted of her. That of a hardworking self-taught bookworm. She was probably given a computer for her one-year old birthday present, and that, as they say, is that. But there still seems to be a lot more missing. Certainly wanting to actually know what makes things tick instead of simply how they tick can be responsible for her rise in status to tac-witch. And she probably owned and read every manual on every system. (I got the same vibe from Honor as well, when she was a tac-warlock.)

But there is still a lot missing that can't account for Shannon being able to go to the front of the class in tactical, to the huge, totally disconnected career track of, not only systems engineer / inventer, but spearheading the PRH's version of Project Gram. Shannon's talents equal Sonja's in some areas and may even exceed them, when Sonja was formally trained in the premiere education system in the Galaxy specifically in her field. There has to be some very interesting background hiding in Shannon's past.

Shannon made too big a jump to where she is which realistically can't be explained. Other than, perhaps, witch. Of course, she can play with my 'pewter and hardware any time she wants. She has long cast a spell on me.

Late edit: I wouldn't be surprised if Shannon isn't in the same boat as Honor, another member of the long lost Alpha line. BTW, has there been mention of genies settling on Haven?

cthia wrote:But there is still a lot missing that can't account for Shannon being able to go to the front of the class in tactical, to the huge, totally disconnected career track of, not only systems engineer / inventer, but spearheading the PRH's version of Project Gram. Shannon's talents equal Sonja's in some areas and may even exceed them, when Sonja was formally trained in the premiere education system in the Galaxy specifically in her field. There has to be some very interesting background hiding in Shannon's past.

I agree and I'd love to hear David's version of this. We might learn more whenever the House of Lies comes, as it should tell the story of how Haven got the ships it got, especially in the post-PRH period. It could also come as a short story elsewhere, like happened in Our Sacred Honor and in Recruiting Exercise for Eloise Pritchart and Kevin Usher. Sonja Hemphill got half a book (though shared with King Roger and Admiral Adcock).

The time between wars couldn't account for her gaining sufficient experience. Theisman doesn't seem to have met her before she was attached with Tourville to Seaford Nine. And she was still aboard Tourville's ship (PNS Count Tilly) when Operation Icarus was launched.

My guess is that she was The Tac Witch because she had already learnt how the tac systems worked and had very good grasp of engineering. An engineering officer would not have risen through the ranks quickly, especially if the upper echelons of the PN were blocked to non-Legislaturalists. She may have been an old hand. We may also discover she's a mustang, thus she may have had hands-on experience with equipment before becoming an officer.

It's also possible (even likely) Theisman had no one else to turn to when he needed to revamp the Havenite shipbuilding and R&D. So he gave her the opportunity and that paid off.

Shannon made too big a jump to where she is which realistically can't be explained. Other than, perhaps, witch. Of course, she can play with my 'pewter and hardware any time she wants. She has long cast a spell on me.

Don't forget the "oops." She made that happen. Another spell?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But there is still a lot missing that can't account for Shannon being able to go to the front of the class in tactical, to the huge, totally disconnected career track of, not only systems engineer / inventer, but spearheading the PRH's version of Project Gram. Shannon's talents equal Sonja's in some areas and may even exceed them, when Sonja was formally trained in the premiere education system in the Galaxy specifically in her field. There has to be some very interesting background hiding in Shannon's past.

I agree and I'd love to hear David's version of this. We might learn more whenever the House of Lies comes, as it should tell the story of how Haven got the ships it got, especially in the post-PRH period. It could also come as a short story elsewhere, like happened in Our Sacred Honor and in Recruiting Exercise for Eloise Pritchart and Kevin Usher. Sonja Hemphill got half a book (though shared with King Roger and Admiral Adcock).

The time between wars couldn't account for her gaining sufficient experience. Theisman doesn't seem to have met her before she was attached with Tourville to Seaford Nine. And she was still aboard Tourville's ship (PNS Count Tilly) when Operation Icarus was launched.

My guess is that she was The Tac Witch because she had already learnt how the tac systems worked and had very good grasp of engineering. An engineering officer would not have risen through the ranks quickly, especially if the upper echelons of the PN were blocked to non-Legislaturalists. She may have been an old hand. We may also discover she's a mustang, thus she may have had hands-on experience with equipment before becoming an officer.

It's also possible (even likely) Theisman had no one else to turn to when he needed to revamp the Havenite shipbuilding and R&D. So he gave her the opportunity and that paid off.

Shannon made too big a jump to where she is which realistically can't be explained. Other than, perhaps, witch. Of course, she can play with my 'pewter and hardware any time she wants. She has long cast a spell on me.

Don't forget the "oops." She made that happen. Another spell?

I'd really like to see David bang something out on the old Remington about her as well. I'd actually be willing to plunk down some cash on the possibility of her being a mustang. That would have afforded her a lot of opportunities to get her hands on a lot of hardware and electronics. I can only imagine what unlimited access to equipment would mean to a total geek.

But somehow I think that hardly scratches the surface, perhaps and unless she also graduated top in her class at some prestigious Academy. The woman literally entered the Navy rewriting the technical manuals on tactical. She is undoubtedly heavy on theory, and that most likely came from a very prestigious University. She was certainly never accused of failing to RTFM. She probably had all kinds of parts in her quarters, and chances are she upgraded her console at tactical. LOL

She was a bookworm and she seemed a bit absent minded because she was always inventing stuff in her head. Most likely she couldn't remember all of that formal "Citizen" crap because she was always busy tinkering in her head when the memos went out. She didn't have time for that crap. That woman was not going to lose her life because she didn't know her craft. And she wasn't going to die because of inferior systems or political customs. It is said that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, but Shannon could certainly squeeze blood out of inferior Peep systems. Shannon was to Sonja and the RMN, what Honor was to the Peeps. The Boogeyman. She is impressive and I agree on wanting to know more of the ingredients that went into the recipe that baked her.

The part about Theisman not having met her makes me wonder whether or not he had at least heard of her. Rumors should have been circulating about her very early in her career as it were with Honor. And, as with Honor, someone was responsible and took her under his wing. Sorta.

Thanks for the link. Bitchin' !

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Don't forget the "oops." She made that happen. Another spell?

Now that I think of it, that was no spell. She simply RTFM. All 15,999 pages. It says it right there on page 1498. "In case of runaway ships or government. Break Glass. Push Button."

She was a bookworm and she seemed a bit absent minded because she was always inventing stuff in her head. Most likely she couldn't remember all of that formal "Citizen" crap because she was always busy tinkering in her head when the memos went out. She didn't have time for that crap. That woman was not going to lose her life because she didn't know her craft. And she wasn't going to die because of inferior systems or political customs. It is said that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, but Shannon could certainly squeeze blood out of inferior Peep systems. Shannon was to Sonja and the RMN, what Honor was to the Peeps. The Boogeyman. She is impressive and I agree on wanting to know more of the ingredients that went into the recipe that baked her.

My thought -- kind of echoed earlier is that first and foremost, Shannon is a top of her class genius, but also a very competitive one. AKA she's apparently a YOUNG tac officer on Vaubon, but already to the level of pirate-baiter good when we first run across her. She's also got Warner Caslet who is a top notch LC commander that didn't get his career squashed by the idiots in the Harris regime. So they've been back and forthing it on tactics for a while, and he's likely been asking "what else can we do?" long enough to nurture her "witchiness"...

Which in some ways merely saying "be curious. See what you can do that's not in the manuals. And for extra measure, don't get us killed in the process". Then in operation Stalking Horse, she's the ONLY tac officer that spots the modified wall of battle formed by the five Grayson SD's. And who is the sole surviving flag officer from that action? So it's no surprise her stock went up IMMEDIATELY. To where Tourville wanted her on HIS bridge as well. Then she helps design the raids on Zanzibar where Tourville crushes the manties PLUS is part of the ship crew that captures HH. I'd say she's visible, but not trustable because of that last one. And then, "oops". Loyalty proven.

I will tell you though, I wouldn't want to play chess against this lady. She learns too darn quick and while I'm planning my next move she's playing the 3D version on the 'puters that might even give Harkness a headache.

SharkHunter wrote:

She was a bookworm and she seemed a bit absent minded because she was always inventing stuff in her head. Most likely she couldn't remember all of that formal "Citizen" crap because she was always busy tinkering in her head when the memos went out. She didn't have time for that crap. That woman was not going to lose her life because she didn't know her craft. And she wasn't going to die because of inferior systems or political customs. It is said that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, but Shannon could certainly squeeze blood out of inferior Peep systems. Shannon was to Sonja and the RMN, what Honor was to the Peeps. The Boogeyman. She is impressive and I agree on wanting to know more of the ingredients that went into the recipe that baked her.

My thought -- kind of echoed earlier is that first and foremost, Shannon is a top of her class genius, but also a very competitive one. AKA she's apparently a YOUNG tac officer on Vaubon, but already to the level of pirate-baiter good when we first run across her. She's also got Warner Caslet who is a top notch LC commander that didn't get his career squashed by the idiots in the Harris regime. So they've been back and forthing it on tactics for a while, and he's likely been asking "what else can we do?" long enough to nurture her "witchiness"...

Which in some ways merely saying "be curious. See what you can do that's not in the manuals. And for extra measure, don't get us killed in the process". Then in operation Stalking Horse, she's the ONLY tac officer that spots the modified wall of battle formed by the five Grayson SD's. And who is the sole surviving flag officer from that action? So it's no surprise her stock went up IMMEDIATELY. To where Tourville wanted her on HIS bridge as well. Then she helps design the raids on Zanzibar where Tourville crushes the manties PLUS is part of the ship crew that captures HH. I'd say she's visible, but not trustable because of that last one. And then, "oops". Loyalty proven.

I will tell you though, I wouldn't want to play chess against this lady. She learns too darn quick and while I'm planning my next move she's playing the 3D version on the 'puters that might even give Harkness a headache.

Did you see the movie Queen's Gambit? That is exactly what she does - in her head - at one point.

At any rate, you may be able to beat Shannon. She'll undoubtedly be distracted at some point. Probably because she'll be bored with both of our opening moves. LOL

cthia wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:She was a bookworm and she seemed a bit absent minded because she was always inventing stuff in her head. Most likely she couldn't remember all of that formal "Citizen" crap because she was always busy tinkering in her head when the memos went out. She didn't have time for that crap. That woman was not going to lose her life because she didn't know her craft. And she wasn't going to die because of inferior systems or political customs. It is said that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, but Shannon could certainly squeeze blood out of inferior Peep systems. Shannon was to Sonja and the RMN, what Honor was to the Peeps. The Boogeyman. She is impressive and I agree on wanting to know more of the ingredients that went into the recipe that baked her.

My thought -- kind of echoed earlier is that first and foremost, Shannon is a top of her class genius, but also a very competitive one. AKA she's apparently a YOUNG tac officer on Vaubon, but already to the level of pirate-baiter good when we first run across her. She's also got Warner Caslet who is a top notch LC commander that didn't get his career squashed by the idiots in the Harris regime. So they've been back and forthing it on tactics for a while, and he's likely been asking "what else can we do?" long enough to nurture her "witchiness"...

Which in some ways merely saying "be curious. See what you can do that's not in the manuals. And for extra measure, don't get us killed in the process". Then in operation Stalking Horse, she's the ONLY tac officer that spots the modified wall of battle formed by the five Grayson SD's. And who is the sole surviving flag officer from that action? So it's no surprise her stock went up IMMEDIATELY. To where Tourville wanted her on HIS bridge as well. Then she helps design the raids on Zanzibar where Tourville crushes the manties PLUS is part of the ship crew that captures HH. I'd say she's visible, but not trustable because of that last one. And then, "oops". Loyalty proven.

I will tell you though, I wouldn't want to play chess against this lady. She learns too darn quick and while I'm planning my next move she's playing the 3D version on the 'puters that might even give Harkness a headache.

Did you see the movie Queen's Gambit? That is exactly what she does - in her head - at one point.

At any rate, you may be able to beat Shannon. She'll undoubtedly be distracted at some point. Probably because she'll be bored with both of our opening moves. LOL[/quote]
I'm somehow reminded of your very gifted niece. As someone who knows what it's like to be gifted (though she makes me at her age look stupid), I can tell you that it's sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse. I get Shannon's lack of social skills, as a tech nerd very well.

Shannon'Foraker wrote:I'm somehow reminded of your very gifted niece. As someone who knows what it's like to be gifted (though she makes me at her age look stupid), I can tell you that it's sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse. I get Shannon's lack of social skills, as a tech nerd very well.

After Queen's Gambit came out, my sister couldn't believe how many people called to say the series reminded them of my niece. Perhaps the writer read a certain thread.

I think having your social skills challenged is a natural byproduct of being gifted. You are misunderstood and feared. It is the same way with both Shannon and Sonja. Honor didn't exactly make a lot of friends herself in college.



P.S. I decided to research the book and it was written in 1983! There goes another title on my reading list. My long reading list.