Was this out of character for Honor?

cthia wrote:She did eventually let them go, and she was willing to lie to help repatriate them. But that goes toward motive that she felt sour about what she had done as well. She had to know full-well that there would be a good chance that her ruse wouldn't work.

No doubt. And of course she felt sour: fighting honourable enemies is never easy. When they're evil and faceless, it's easy to kill them and not deal with too much remorse. When they fought honourably, did the right thing for you, and you still had to capture them, knowing full well that that might mean the end of their careers, it's not easy.

Frankly, under the suspicious eyes of the regime at that time it was almost a certainty the truth would come out. I am willing to bet that that is what happened. Every surviving crew member was probably severely debriefed and someone's story didn't add up.

Honor had to have known that Caslet and crew may have been executed or exiled, which would have been an unworthy end to such an honorable act. I can imagine - that for some career personnel - exile is worse than death. Honor came to know that fact very well.

Late edit: Haven's debriefings during that time probably rivaled the Spanish Inquisition.

Agreed too, she probably wouldn't have let them go at all, knowing who was in charge of the PRH, if she hadn't found the orders saying that the PN was to avoid attacking Andermani-flagged ships. It would have been better for them to remain POWs until the end of the war than let them back under the clutches of StateSec.

But here's the thing, she knows only a handful of people would have known what flag Wayfarer was actually flying at the moment. However implausible this story may seem to us (there must have been dozens of people in CIC and other sensor watches who would have access to the data feed, at minimum), in internal history this is consistent. She had had the full benefit of Alfredo Yu's expertise and the ONI had had access to very recent PN warships and captured crews. So her intelligence on how information was distributed aboard PN ships was current and accurate. She knew that letting the command crew know that her report would say "Sternenlicht" would mean that they could pass the information to their own debriefers and it would pass muster.

Yes, there would be discrepancies, no doubt. But here's the thing: human memory is not perfect. Two truthful eyewitness accounts are never the same. In fact, if they are exactly the same, investigators will be suspicious it's a coordinated action to deceive. So of course in the heat of battle there will be improper recollections. Without actual records from the PN ships lost, there was no corroborating evidence to or counter the argument of the command crew.

Would StateSec give them the benefit of the doubt? That's a good question. One that the command crew would have to know for themselves, the risk they would incur to return to their homeland. They could have chosen to defect, like Alfredo had and how Warner later did too.

And Shannon was The Tac Witch. If she said it was Andermani-flagged, who would be willing to go against her?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:She did eventually let them go, and she was willing to lie to help repatriate them. But that goes toward motive that she felt sour about what she had done as well. She had to know full-well that there would be a good chance that her ruse wouldn't work.

No doubt. And of course she felt sour: fighting honourable enemies is never easy. When they're evil and faceless, it's easy to kill them and not deal with too much remorse. When they fought honourably, did the right thing for you, and you still had to capture them, knowing full well that that might mean the end of their careers, it's not easy.

Frankly, under the suspicious eyes of the regime at that time it was almost a certainty the truth would come out. I am willing to bet that that is what happened. Every surviving crew member was probably severely debriefed and someone's story didn't add up.

Honor had to have known that Caslet and crew may have been executed or exiled, which would have been an unworthy end to such an honorable act. I can imagine - that for some career personnel - exile is worse than death. Honor came to know that fact very well.

Late edit: Haven's debriefings during that time probably rivaled the Spanish Inquisition.

Agreed too, she probably wouldn't have let them go at all, knowing who was in charge of the PRH, if she hadn't found the orders saying that the PN was to avoid attacking Andermani-flagged ships. It would have been better for them to remain POWs until the end of the war than let them back under the clutches of StateSec.

But here's the thing, she knows only a handful of people would have known what flag Wayfarer was actually flying at the moment. However implausible this story may seem to us (there must have been dozens of people in CIC and other sensor watches who would have access to the data feed, at minimum), in internal history this is consistent. She had had the full benefit of Alfredo Yu's expertise and the ONI had had access to very recent PN warships and captured crews. So her intelligence on how information was distributed aboard PN ships was current and accurate. She knew that letting the command crew know that her report would say "Sternenlicht" would mean that they could pass the information to their own debriefers and it would pass muster.

Yes, there would be discrepancies, no doubt. But here's the thing: human memory is not perfect. Two truthful eyewitness accounts are never the same. In fact, if they are exactly the same, investigators will be suspicious it's a coordinated action to deceive. So of course in the heat of battle there will be improper recollections. Without actual records from the PN ships lost, there was no corroborating evidence to or counter the argument of the command crew.

Would StateSec give them the benefit of the doubt? That's a good question. One that the command crew would have to know for themselves, the risk they would incur to return to their homeland. They could have chosen to defect, like Alfredo had and how Warner later did too.

And Shannon was The Tac Witch. If she said it was Andermani-flagged, who would be willing to go against her?

I love the part about fighting honorable enemies. Very good point. I think she even apologized to them for what she had to do.

But the data feed is one of the biggest flies in the ointment I thought. But then, when the data feed was altered once before when Honor and crew escaped Tepes I wondered how that could be hidden. Time stamps and continuity can easily point to altered or doctored recordings. However, I thought the biggest problems would come from someone on the crew who would trade favors with the regime in return for a family member in trouble with the Committee or something of that nature. Or simply out of fear of the regime during their version of the Spanish Inquisition. Bad seeds on the ship would do it in a heartbeat. Crew members who were cut from the same cloth as Randy Steilman.

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tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:It is the very fact that he was one of the most dangerous men in the Galaxy which is what made it questionable why she let him go. If she had detained him, then the mission may have been a wrap and Manticore wouldn't presently be blamed for bombing Mesa.

Pros:
- Manticore wouldn't be blamed for bombing Mesa.
- Houdini wouldn't have been triggered. (Pro or Con?)
- Did their mission ultimately lead to the Alliance?
- Albrecht Detweiler and some of the Inner Onion were killed.
- The destruction of the Gamma Center.

Cons:
- Albrecht Detweiler would still be alive.
- Whatever info obtained from the mission wouldn't exist. But then, what information did the two actually gather?

None of these pros and cons are things that Honor could have used in her reasoning and some do not necessarily follow. For example, at some point Manticore would finally wake to the existence of Malign and so invade Mesa and at that point the bombs would be set off and Manticore would be blamed.

As for the questions of whether the duo brought back information which then lead to the Alliance, the emphatically positive answer is that they brought back sure knowledge of Mesa's responsibility for the nano-assassination technique, which had been the only reason for breaking off the meeting of heads of state at Torch. The information included the Malign's master plan to rule all humanity in the name of genetic improvement, which explained why they fomented war to destabilize the existing order..

Agreed, she couldn't have used any of that in her reasoning. Forgive me if I implied as much. I'm not actually condemning Honor for her decisions. In fact, they were perfectly acceptable decisions for any other officer to make in her shoes. I simply think the decision may have been "out of character." Not a wrong decision. Simply out of character for Honor.

P.S.
BTW, I was worried about your absence in the midst of the pandemic. Glad you are safe.

cthia wrote:BTW, from where did Shannon obtain all of her technical skills?

She's probably from a recent conquest that hadn't turned its education system into oatmeal

cthia wrote:But the data feed is one of the biggest flies in the ointment I thought. But then, when the data feed was altered once before when Honor and crew escaped Tepes I wondered how that could be hidden. Time stamps and continuity can easily point to altered or doctored recordings. However, I thought the biggest problems would come from someone on the crew who would trade favors with the regime in return for a family member in trouble with the Committee or something of that nature. Or simply out of fear of the regime during their version of the Spanish Inquisition. Bad seeds on the ship would do it in a heartbeat. Crew members who were cut from the same cloth as Randy Steilman.

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There is no data feed for State Sec to scrutinize. The ship is not something they are getting back, and there is simply no way Honor or her people are letting anyone bring back recordings that may potentially come back to bite them in the posterior - Manties may be arrogant, but they are mostly competent. The only people likely to have the info all have a vested interest in keeping quiet.

The only source for that bit of intel is going to be stealing it from the RMN. Possible, but sufficiently unlikely as to be unworthy of concern.

cthia wrote:But the data feed is one of the biggest flies in the ointment I thought. But then, when the data feed was altered once before when Honor and crew escaped Tepes I wondered how that could be hidden. Time stamps and continuity can easily point to altered or doctored recordings. However, I thought the biggest problems would come from someone on the crew who would trade favors with the regime in return for a family member in trouble with the Committee or something of that nature. Or simply out of fear of the regime during their version of the Spanish Inquisition. Bad seeds on the ship would do it in a heartbeat. Crew members who were cut from the same cloth as Randy Steilman.

Again one of those things that from our current understanding of technology shouldn't have happened. It's very easy for us to make cryptographically-signed records that make spotting tampering easy. It may not be possible to recover the unadultered records, but it's easy to detect tampering. The whole cryptocurrency thing is based partly on this, but it goes further back.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past the PN and InSec to have built something they could tamper records with in the first place. If you build in a backdoor for yourself, your enemies can use it too (something our politicians don't understand when they demand backdoors and master cryptography keys for law enforcement reasons). So even though I personally find this unlikely, I can accept it's possible and suspend disbelief.

As for a crew member trying to trade favours for telling on the command crew, you have to be suspicious of the crew member in the first place. They have something to gain from this, so why wouldn't they be the ones manufacturing information? And remember that this would go against the word and report of the StateSec direct representative on-board, People's Commissioner Denis Jourdain. The commissioners were supposedly to be loyal beyond fault and above reproach.

And of course we know that wasn't the case. Exhibit A: Denis Jourdain. Exhibit B: Denis LePic. Exhibit C: Eloise Prichart.

zyffyr wrote:There is no data feed for State Sec to scrutinize. The ship is not something they are getting back, and there is simply no way Honor or her people are letting anyone bring back recordings that may potentially come back to bite them in the posterior - Manties may be arrogant, but they are mostly competent. The only people likely to have the info all have a vested interest in keeping quiet.

The only source for that bit of intel is going to be stealing it from the RMN. Possible, but sufficiently unlikely as to be unworthy of concern.

Even if they steal the data from the RMN, which may or may not include records copied from the PN ships lost, the investigators need to assume the data could have been tampered with. Misinformation or honey pot. So StateSec can't rely on that as the accurate and full truth either.

Not even the SLN was that stupid, though in their case the records provided on the Battle of Spindle went against their understanding of the Universe, so they had cause to disbelieve them.

cthia wrote:P.S.
BTW, I was worried about your absence in the midst of the pandemic. Glad you are safe.

Again, thank you for your concern. I have been fine, just less motivated.

cthia wrote:Interesting.

First off, I always wondered what kind of strategic or tactical information Cachat could have obtained simply by eyeballing the ship up close, even if he had been a trained shipbuilder or navy tactician. Of which he was neither. I know it must be possible for a trained eye to gather useful information that way, since the US never allows the right side of Air Force One to be photographed.

??? There are plenty of pictures of the right side of Air Force One, and the most casual online search finds them. The president is never seen entering or leaving from the right side; and so the video and close-ups of him never show the right side. But then I've never seen a commercial airliner board or disembark from the right side either.
It's just standard convention to board from the left. (I've seen claims it's because the pilot sits in the left seat and so can best judge how to position the plane relative to the jet bridge, air stairs, or welcoming party when those are on his left. Then as a consequence plane is laid out so most ground crew access is from the right, including often putting galleys opposite the main passenger entry door so that opposite side door can be used to restock the galley off the scissors lift truck while passengers are getting on or off)


As to Cachat if he'd been a trained ship specialist and been able to see the hull of HMS Invictus as he approached the most obvious thing he'd have seen (which the RMN would have been trying to keep under wraps) would be the enormous docked Keyhole platform amidships. He might not know all its capabilities; but it'd be clear that it had PDLCs, sensors, and impeller nodes -- that it was a detachable platform nearly the size of a destroyer. And self-evidentlythe RMN thought it was worth devoting quite a lot of prime broadside real estate to squeeze it in. (And therefore clearly rated it as more useful than all the hull mounted sensors, CMs, PDLCs, and/or missiles that could have been installed in its place)

He also might have been able to get a rough count of its point defense, and see that it mounted no broadside offensive tubes. In as of itself that may not be hugely useful; but once Haven can start correlating combat recordings against that information it lets them better figure out how capable each RMN mount is.

And it's possible that he'd have been able to judge the relative size of the CM tubes and realize that Manticore had switched to larger CM (aka the Mk31). If his path had led him past the hammerhead tubes he might also have been able to judge the relative size of the Mk23 tubes and thus have an estimate of how much smaller the RMN MDMs were than Haven's counterparts -- allowing Havenite naval intelligence to better estimate the number a podlayer could carry; which would feed into tactical plans.

And of course with unrestricted views he might have an idea of the number and type of ship's Honor had available, and might have seen new types, like the Nike-class BC(L). We don't know how much public info there was about the ships designed during the ceasefire; so even a small glimpse might let Haven figure out quite a lot (if for no other reason than by rejecting rumors or scraps of intelligence that conflicts with his observations)

Or even seeing what the RMN doesn't have with Honor at Trevor's Star could give them useful intelligence.

None of this is earth shattering - and likely wouldn't significantly affect the course of the war. But all of it is stuff the RMN would prefer that Haven not know so clearly know.

Jonathan_S wrote:There are plenty of pictures of the right side of Air Force One, and the most casual online search finds them. The president is never seen entering or leaving from the right side; and so the video and close-ups of him never show the right side. But then I've never seen a commercial airliner board or disembark from the right side either.

Pretty sure that's just a carry-over from ships, since the left side is, after all, the port side, which is the side in which the port was when ships docked. I'm also sure there are videos on YouTube answering the question why you always board aeroplanes from the left.

It's just standard convention to board from the left. (I've seen claims it's because the pilot sits in the left seat and so can best judge how to position the plane relative to the jet bridge, air stairs, or welcoming party when those are on his left. Then as a consequence plane is laid out so most ground crew access is from the right, including often putting galleys opposite the main passenger entry door so that opposite side door can be used to restock the galley off the scissors lift truck while passengers are getting on or off)

That's not a reason today, since there's a 50-50 chance that the pilot in control is the first officer and thus sitting on the right (starboard) seat. They also don't look to their left to see the jetway; instead, they look forward to the ground worker with the lollipops indicating whether to turn left, right, continue forward or stop.

All the rest is consequence. Because we've always boarded from the left, the galleys are organised so that access to the left side isn't required while resupplying the plane.

Though I've wondered if we board on the left because the flag drawn on the fuselage is drawn correctly (mast to the left). On the right side of the aeroplane, the flags are usually drawn backwards, as if they were blowing because of the wind and held up by a mast to the right (front).

As to Cachat if he'd been a trained ship specialist and been able to see the hull of HMS Invictus as he approached the most obvious thing he'd have seen (which the RMN would have been trying to keep under wraps) would be the enormous docked Keyhole platform amidships. He might not know all its capabilities; but it'd be clear that it had PDLCs, sensors, and impeller nodes -- that it was a detachable platform nearly the size of a destroyer. And self-evidentlythe RMN thought it was worth devoting quite a lot of prime broadside real estate to squeeze it in. (And therefore clearly rated it as more useful than all the hull mounted sensors, CMs, PDLCs, and/or missiles that could have been installed in its place)

Weren't the Invictus built from scratch with Keyhole platforms? Or more precisely, weren't HMS Intolerant and HMS Imperator seen in action in Havenite systems with their Keyholes deployed prior to this point?

I'm not talking about Keyhole IIs. I don't remember now if the ships under Adm. Yanakov that first fired the Apollos during Operation Sanskrit had to have a refit prior to doing so, but I don't think so. I think all the Invictus and Honor Harrington II class ships were built from the ground up with Keyhole II. Only the Andermani ships had to go through a refit.

And HMS Nike was also part of Eighth Fleet so the RHN would have seen Keyholes deployed by battlecruisers too.

He also might have been able to get a rough count of its point defense, and see that it mounted no broadside offensive tubes. In as of itself that may not be hugely useful; but once Haven can start correlating combat recordings against that information it lets them better figure out how capable each RMN mount is.

That wouldn't have been news to the RHN. By this time, the two Invictus under Honor's command had seen action and the RHN had pretty good scans of them, even if at long range and through sidewalls. This is also after the Battle of Solon, where HMS Intolerant was lost, so the RHN had also recovered debris from that ship.

Plus, it's possible they got enough scans from the Invictus in construction at Grendelsbane before those ships were scuttled. Unlike battle conditions, none of those ships had wedges and sidewalls up to obscure their features.

And it's possible that he'd have been able to judge the relative size of the CM tubes and realize that Manticore had switched to larger CM (aka the Mk31). If his path had led him past the hammerhead tubes he might also have been able to judge the relative size of the Mk23 tubes and thus have an estimate of how much smaller the RMN MDMs were than Haven's counterparts -- allowing Havenite naval intelligence to better estimate the number a podlayer could carry; which would feed into tactical plans.

Again old news. All those missiles had been used in quite a lot of battles since the war had resumed.

And of course with unrestricted views he might have an idea of the number and type of ship's Honor had available, and might have seen new types, like the Nike-class BC(L). We don't know how much public info there was about the ships designed during the ceasefire; so even a small glimpse might let Haven figure out quite a lot (if for no other reason than by rejecting rumors or scraps of intelligence that conflicts with his observations)

Or even seeing what the RMN doesn't have with Honor at Trevor's Star could give them useful intelligence.

The force composition would have been useful information, indeed. This sits between Cutworm III (Battle of Solon) and Sanskrit (Battle of Lovat) and Eighth Fleet had taken a beating at Solon. So knowing how the Alliance had reinforced Eighth Fleet would have been priceless knowledge. Even knowing that there were still very few (if any) Andermani ships would have been important.

But Cachat couldn't know that by eyeballing. Ships aren't close enough that you can tell what they are by looking out a viewport and warships don't have running lights. They're dark specs against the blackness of space. Even if he could see something by the reflection of sunlight (and remember this is next to the Junction Terminus, so far from the star), he'd see a dot or a small dash. Just think of the last time you were on an aeroplane and looked down to a cloudless terrain: could you spot any cars? And this is from 10-12 km away, not the hundreds to thousands that would separate ships in their parking formations in Trevor's Star.

Plus, without further reference to compare, couldn't judge distances either. So he wouldn't be able to tell a frigate from a superdreadnought (and there was a frigate in system, the Nat Turner).

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Interesting.

First off, I always wondered what kind of strategic or tactical information Cachat could have obtained simply by eyeballing the ship up close, even if he had been a trained shipbuilder or navy tactician. Of which he was neither. I know it must be possible for a trained eye to gather useful information that way, since the US never allows the right side of Air Force One to be photographed.

??? There are plenty of pictures of the right side of Air Force One, and the most casual online search finds them. The president is never seen entering or leaving from the right side; and so the video and close-ups of him never show the right side. But then I've never seen a commercial airliner board or disembark from the right side either.
It's just standard convention to board from the left. (I've seen claims it's because the pilot sits in the left seat and so can best judge how to position the plane relative to the jet bridge, air stairs, or welcoming party when those are on his left. Then as a consequence plane is laid out so most ground crew access is from the right, including often putting galleys opposite the main passenger entry door so that opposite side door can be used to restock the galley off the scissors lift truck while passengers are getting on or off)


As to Cachat if he'd been a trained ship specialist and been able to see the hull of HMS Invictus as he approached the most obvious thing he'd have seen (which the RMN would have been trying to keep under wraps) would be the enormous docked Keyhole platform amidships. He might not know all its capabilities; but it'd be clear that it had PDLCs, sensors, and impeller nodes -- that it was a detachable platform nearly the size of a destroyer. And self-evidentlythe RMN thought it was worth devoting quite a lot of prime broadside real estate to squeeze it in. (And therefore clearly rated it as more useful than all the hull mounted sensors, CMs, PDLCs, and/or missiles that could have been installed in its place)

He also might have been able to get a rough count of its point defense, and see that it mounted no broadside offensive tubes. In as of itself that may not be hugely useful; but once Haven can start correlating combat recordings against that information it lets them better figure out how capable each RMN mount is.

And it's possible that he'd have been able to judge the relative size of the CM tubes and realize that Manticore had switched to larger CM (aka the Mk31). If his path had led him past the hammerhead tubes he might also have been able to judge the relative size of the Mk23 tubes and thus have an estimate of how much smaller the RMN MDMs were than Haven's counterparts -- allowing Havenite naval intelligence to better estimate the number a podlayer could carry; which would feed into tactical plans.

And of course with unrestricted views he might have an idea of the number and type of ship's Honor had available, and might have seen new types, like the Nike-class BC(L). We don't know how much public info there was about the ships designed during the ceasefire; so even a small glimpse might let Haven figure out quite a lot (if for no other reason than by rejecting rumors or scraps of intelligence that conflicts with his observations)

Or even seeing what the RMN doesn't have with Honor at Trevor's Star could give them useful intelligence.

None of this is earth shattering - and likely wouldn't significantly affect the course of the war. But all of it is stuff the RMN would prefer that Haven not know so clearly know.

I am certain I read in an article that photos are not allowed to be taken of the right side of AF1. But it is possible that I am flubbing the facts. I vaguely recall details that may be something like, closeups are not allowed. Or that photos are only allowed by photographers who have been cleared. At any rate, I can't seem to find the article, and photos certainly exist on the internet, even photos of what seems like regular enthusiasts taking photos. So in light of me being unable to produce the article, you have my apologies. I can't rule out it being a conspiracy theory that I bought into since I also can't recall the source of the article, i.e., whether the source is credible. My apologies again.