How to handle unhappy former Havenites in the navy?

Manticore had some Havenite refugees who served in the Manticorian Navy. I figure many of their attitudes towards Haven range from Unhappy to Salt the Planet of Haven. And just dismissing them, or ordering them to get along with the Havenites seems like a bad idea, or something of a betrayal of personal who serve you loyally in favor of your enemy.

Puidwen wrote:Manticore had some Havenite refugees who served in the Manticorian Navy. I figure many of their attitudes towards Haven range from Unhappy to Salt the Planet of Haven. And just dismissing them, or ordering them to get along with the Havenites seems like a bad idea, or something of a betrayal of personal who serve you loyally in favor of your enemy.

I agree it may be a bad idea to have those people serve alongside those whom they still have strong resentment for. RMN psych services should be able to identify who those are and ensure that they aren't asked to serve alongside RHN personnel. There's plenty for RMN to do away from Haven.

It may seem to them that it's a betrayal of their dedication, but it is not a fact. It's just their perception. Counselling may help them understand why rationally cooperating with Haven is a good idea, but that may not be sufficient. Hence the need to find good positions for those without detriment to their careers.

I also don't think there'll be a lot of them that feel like the planet of Haven needs to be salted. Most of those refugees who have harboured such strong sentiments would have failed their psych profiles when joining the RMN in the first place. And since the RMN and the RMMC have never had to resort to a draft, it stands to reason all its personnel were volunteers in a form or another and therefore could be rejected if they weren't mentally stable.

Pardon my memory here, but where do these former Havenites come from which have made them so homicidally sour against their nation? I don't even think Alfredo Yu harbors that kind of ill-will towards Haven as a whole. I think both he and Caslet actually understand and expect their nation to feel as they do against them. But I thought the resentment was the other way around, directed at them. What am I not remembering?

Puidwen wrote:Manticore had some Havenite refugees who served in the Manticorian Navy. I figure many of their attitudes towards Haven range from Unhappy to Salt the Planet of Haven. And just dismissing them, or ordering them to get along with the Havenites seems like a bad idea, or something of a betrayal of personal who serve you loyally in favor of your enemy.

My read on former Havenites is most are refugees.
Mateo Gutierrez family stowed away on a SL freighter
Thomas Ramirez escaped with the last refugee convoy during the invasion of San Martin.
Adcock family escaped/refugeed from Maslow system

cthia wrote:Pardon my memory here, but where do these former Havenites come from which have made them so homicidally sour against their nation? I don't even think Alfredo Yu harbors that kind of ill-will towards Haven as a whole. I think both he and Caslet actually understand and expect their nation to feel as they do against them. But I thought the resentment was the other way around, directed at them. What am I not remembering?

The ones who are likely the most homicidally sour against Haven are the escapees from Hades, who would be concentrated in the Protector's Own (rather than in the RMN).

And hopefully most of them could see that their mistreatment was caused by the former regime(s) - and wouldn't apply the resulting rage against Pritchart's restored Republic.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Pardon my memory here, but where do these former Havenites come from which have made them so homicidally sour against their nation? I don't even think Alfredo Yu harbors that kind of ill-will towards Haven as a whole. I think both he and Caslet actually understand and expect their nation to feel as they do against them. But I thought the resentment was the other way around, directed at them. What am I not remembering?

The ones who are likely the most homicidally sour against Haven are the escapees from Hades, who would be concentrated in the Protector's Own (rather than in the RMN).

And hopefully most of them could see that their mistreatment was caused by the former regime(s) - and wouldn't apply the resulting rage against Pritchart's restored Republic.

The escapees were all I could think of, other than Alfredo Yu and Caslet and company. But the escapees that were from Haven were all from varied sources and dates. IINM, some predated the Committee of Public Safety?* And were actually bona fide war criminals. Those that were actually enemies of the state I could see. But most of the others I'd think would be tickled pink the Committee of Public Safety and Saint-Just were no more. But there were some, iirc, that were sent there by the Committee during the purges just for the hell of it. I think at one point they were targeting entire families?

* Or am I in error here. Anyone recall the age of the terror of hell on Hades?

cthia wrote:The escapees were all I could think of, other than Alfredo Yu and Caslet and company. But the escapees that were from Haven were all from varied sources and dates. IINM, some predated the Committee of Public Safety?* And were actually bona fide war criminals. Those that were actually enemies of the state I could see. But most of the others I'd think would be tickled pink the Committee of Public Safety and Saint-Just were no more. But there were some, iirc, that were sent there by the Committee during the purges just for the hell of it. I think at one point they were targeting entire families?

* Or am I in error here. Anyone recall the age of the terror of hell on Hades?

You're not. A lot of them -- possibly the majority of them -- had been there from the Legislaturalist regime. In fact, everyone who was from a conquered system now part of the PRH was from that time, since the PRH did not conquer any systems and admit them into the republic after the start of the war until the time Honor got sent there. Remember this was before Operation Icarus, so the PRH had only lost ground in the war so far.

A lot of those had been there for decades. For example, Commodore Jesus Ramirez had been there since the fall of San Martin, which was 1884, or 25 T-years at that point. There were lots of people who had been there for longer. It's amazing (bordering on unbelivable) that they were still alive, let alone could crew and fight ships.

But going back to the OP and my reply: the ones that had let their rage and resentment against the Peeps take tool wouldn't also have been the least functional ones. If they lost their rationality, they wouldn't be of immediate service to Honor and thus wouldn't have been absorbed into the Protector's Own. Grayson must have also given them counselling after the escape and they must have also screened for psychological damage, giving medical discharges to those that could later blow up.

Or reassign them to GNS Francis Mueller. Break out the potato sacks!

As I remember most of the Hades prisoners fell into several categories.

1) political prisoners from Haven both recent and long term.
2) PN personnel who had screwed up but not badly enough to pose for rifle fire.
3) Recent POWs
4) Long term POWs

Assign them to missions that aren't being one of the first group of Manties on Bolthole. Instead, assign them jobs where there are less Havenites around.

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Assign them to missions that aren't being one of the first group of Manties on Bolthole. Instead, assign them jobs where there are less Havenites around.

All those navies will now downsize considerably, so they don't have to put up with unhappy officers and enlisteds, unless they're really good at their jobs. They can be discharged into the reserve and allowed to take up civilian jobs that wouldn't put them in direct contact with Havenites.

Though... with the commerce picking up, that may not last long by itself either.