GA-League War lessons learned

Sigs wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Imagine the SLN just placed emergency orders at existing yards for 10,000 LACs without providing any input into how they intended to use them (because they hasn't even started plotting out, testing and revising, their doctrine). They'd almost assuredly get 10,000 old-style LACs because that's what the yards know how to build.

If the SLN is able to tap into the Leagues tax base they would have immense resources to build whatever they want. That is great for them because the SLN is not only developing the technology and doctrine but it has to train the crews and give them experience outside a simulator. They wont go from the LAC's they have access to in 1922 to the Katana in a few months or even a few years so they have to reach level one and build the LACs in question to train the crews in the meantime they are designing level two LAC's as soon as they achieve those objectives they start building level two LAC's while stopping level one and so on. The SLN is going from 0 LAC's and 0 Crews to potentially several million within the next decade or two, that requires doctrine and training but also at least for system defense LAC's also the infrastructure in the system for maintenance and support of the LAC's.

True - but offensive oriented slow LACs built around small SDMs are utterly useless. And with the best will in the world I can't see squeezing and useful number of Cataphracts into a LAC hull; the extra missile length makes that basically impossible - not that anybody even has a Cataphract scaled down to DD sized missiles. So that leave them with missiles that are outranged by a factor of 4 from any plausible opponent (DDM vs LAC). That makes their old doctrinal use as attritional attack units utterly ineffectual.

Even if their first LACs have no improvement to acceleration, no bow walls, and are still broadside oriented they'd still be vastly more useful if you stripped out all their offensive weapons (especially the missiles; which are volume hogs) and built them as pure anti-missile units with PDLCs and CMs. That wouldn't take any new technology, PDLCs and CM magazines and launchers are basically off the shelf components. The wall would still need to hold down their acceleration to keep in company with them, but at least they'd magnify its survivability against missiles.

But it's changing your LAC doctrine from attritional attack units to dedicated missile defense screen units that would drive the request to build LACs to this alternate weapons fit.

kzt wrote:
Haven can't defend itself on that basis. Probably over 90% of the 200 some planets are all vulnerable to an attack of a dozen SD(P)s. Realistically, some of the pirates seen could put together enough forces to take a 3rd or 4th tier Haven system.

But what happens next? Do the pirates live happily ever after?

No, with both the SL and the RH something very bad is going to happen to a minor force who attacks a system. And it's going to happen soon.

“To try to be safe everywhere is to be strong nowhere.”

Problem is that Haven is doing the best it can. The Republic cannot build 300 SD(P)'s per system because most of the systems in question are not even contributing to the republic's economy in a positive way because of previous mishandling. With the improvement of their economy and industry over the next decades their navy size will inevitably increase.

The League on the other hand is fielding a force of 2,000 SD(P)'s to defend a nation of 1,700 systems. That is 1.35 SD's per system or 20 SD's per system if they only defend the core. They have the means to field 100,000 or more SDs without breaking a sweat and the only reason they have not fielded more is because nobody could threaten them in any conceivable way until Haven started their expansion. Once Haven started their expansion the RMN expanded and as a consequence the IAN expanded, in 1844 the RMN had 11 DN's and 11 BB's and in 1905 they had 121 DN's and 186 SD's and there doesn't seem to be a big difference numerically between 1944 SLN and 1922 SLN in terms of SD's.

For decades the 2,000 active and 8,000 reserve SD's was enough of a threat to keep anyone and everyone away. For a long time the League is likely to not have had any systems fortified except for naval bases and yards. After the war every core and shell system will want a picket, obviously not every system will get the same picket strength but having a few hundred LAC's and a few BC's in the system while knowing there is a QRF within a few days works wonders compared to telling them “To try to be safe everywhere is to be strong nowhere.” so you are on your own will create a problem or two.

“To try to be safe everywhere is to be strong nowhere.”

That is not an excuse to not protect anything anywhere. The GA could have sent out 250 of their SD's to attack the League and split them into 125 divisions of 2 SD's plus escorts and destroyed 125 systems with little in the way of risk. They pull out rearm and hit another 125 systems before the SLN can even react. The attacks could have wiped out 250 out of the top 300 industrial centers in the League for little risk and small investment in ships. If those systems had a picket it still wouldn't protect them but the GA will have to send a much larger force to overwhelm those pickets or they would have to hit fewer targets or deployed valuable SD(P)'s for those attacks. So instead of losing 250 systems worth of industry you lose 5 or 10 systems.

First war with Haven the BB's were effective because they prevented the RMN from swooping in with a handful of BC's and destroying the systems infrastructure, if the RMN wanted to attack those systems they would have had to send DN's or SD's. So although the BB's wont be able to stand up against DN's let alone SD's they protected the system by making it to expensive to attack and since those SD's and DN's were in high demand for defensive and offensive operations they could not divert them for attacks on secondary systems.

Jonathan_S wrote:True - but offensive orientally slow LACs built around small SDMs are utterly useless. And with the best will in the world I can't see squeezing and useful number of Cataphracts into a LAC hull; the extra missile length makes that basically impossible - not that anybody even has a Cataphract scaled down to DD sized missiles. So that leave them with missiles that are outranged by a factor of 4 from any plausible opponent (DDM vs LAC). That makes their old doctrinal use as attritional attack units utterly ineffectual.

When I say LAC I mean LAC exclusively in missile defense role. Putting more CM's and PDC makes them slightly more effective but ultimately they wont be combat units for a while unless they are insane or things go downhill fast. With the SLN's experience in the war in terms of missile salvo's density increasing they would focuse on missile defence before anything else. Make sure that you have the ability to protect yourself before going away to attack somoene.

Even if their first LACs have no improvement to acceleration, no bow walls, and are still broadside oriented they'd still be vastly more useful if you stripped out all their offensive weapons (especially the missiles; which are volume hogs) and built them as pure anti-missile units with PDLCs and CMs.

Based on the crushing and humiliating defeat in every engagement I would think that LAC's would be their first priority as a missile defense platform.

That wouldn't take any new technology, PDLCs and CM magazines and launchers are basically off the shelf components. The wall would still need to hold down their acceleration to keep in company with them, but at least they'd magnify its survivability against missiles.

But it gives them the ability to train the crews and develop their doctrine. Ultimately I would think that missile defense would be an SLN obsession from now on and by the time they reach a version of the LAC/CLAC/SD(P) that gives them parity they would have the crew's, doctrine and experience to use those ships.

But it's changing your LAC doctrine from attritional attack units to dedicated missile defense screen units that would drive the request to build LACs to this alternate weapons fit.

That is what they need exclusively, missile defense.

The way I see it the SLN should have two platforms for offensive action, the SD(P) and the BC(P). LAC's missile defense, DD's, CL's and CA's should be for missile defense.

Jonathan_S wrote:True - but offensive orientally slow LACs

Bolding mine.

...I do not think that word means what you meant it to mean...

...I'm not entirely sure what word you meant to use there.

Michael Everett wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:True - but offensive orientally slow LACs

Bolding mine.

...I do not think that word means what you meant it to mean...

...I'm not entirely sure what word you meant to use there.

The word threw me off too. I think he is the victim of an uppity spell checker. I know her well. I chose to read it as orientedly slow. Although, Webster gives a 4th meaning of orientally as... of superior grade, luster or value.

****** *

At what point would the SLN's quantity overcome Manticore's quality? Would a gorilla who can make big babies as fast as the SL even need LACs? If the SLN design warships with an insane throw weight in missiles and CMs, why would they need LACs to thicken defense when warships will do just fine? The RMN needed LACs as screens because they couldn't build traditional screening elements and other ships fast enough. Plus, the RMN has a serious limitation of warm bodies. If a navy can build regular warships fast enough with a big enough throw weight, and if they have so many ships that each offensive has enormous numbers, and if the SL reduces its crew size as well, then LACs aren't needed. The SLN will still be able to continue its doctrine of hypering in and driving straight for the jugular. No LACs allowed. No LACs needed.

LACs are for chumps with small bank accounts and slow build rates.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:Interesting thread.

I would imagine doctrine has to follow technology. The SLN has to first produce new technologies and then form doctrine around those technologies. You can't put the cart before the horse.

I always screamed at them for spacing their ships too far apart for mutual defensive support. I couldn't believe that wasn't common in all navies. But if the hardware isn't up to it, the doctrine won't matter. SLN CMs should have been even better than the GAs considering SL doctrine.

They know where the technology is leading, SD(P)'s and LAC's. Could be little better than their Scientist Class SD's and 1850's LAC's but it gives them the ability to train and build up their forces. The League can design an SD(P) in a year and have it in space 3 years later, once again, it wont be equal to an alliance SD(P) in any way shape or form but it will be a step forward. It might take them 15 or 20 years to gain parity from a cold start but it doesn't mean that they spend those 15 or 20 years training for the last war without developing new doctrine.

With every new variation of the SD(P)/LAC/CLAC they reevaluate and rework their doctrine

Part of my signature for years was David's quote for the SLN building Podnaughts - it will be 6 years for the League to go from "hey, what's that" to "I Christen thee First Podnaught". League build time is 5-6 years currently for a SD, with artificially induced slowness. Their construction method is similar to the Havenite build method of 1900, which was 4 years per ship, for serial production.

Being about 6 months past that start point, we can't expect to see worthy amounts of crappy SLN SD(p)s for another 6.5 years.

A First Gen sucky BC(p) will probably take less time, but will probably have a limited # of pods (unless they start with a minelayer design, then it will have a decent # of pods, but sucky defense and armor.)

cthia wrote:
At what point would the SLN's quantity overcome Manticore's quality? Would a gorilla who can make big babies as fast as the SL even need LACs? If the SLN design warships with an insane throw weight in missiles and CMs, why would they need LACs to thicken defense when warships will do just fine? The RMN needed LACs as screens because they couldn't build traditional screening elements and other ships fast enough. Plus, the RMN has a serious limitation of warm bodies. If a navy can build regular warships fast enough with a big enough throw weight, and if they have so many ships that each offensive has enormous numbers, and if the SL reduces its crew size as well, then LACs aren't needed. The SLN will still be able to continue its doctrine of hypering in and driving straight for the jugular. No LACs allowed. No LACs needed.

LACs are for chumps with small bank accounts and slow build rates.

I don't think the LAC wing is going away. Why - personnel usage and coverage. A LAC wing or 2 can heavily patrol a system with sufficient firepower to overwhelm DDs and CLs while rotating forces and allowing for surge capacity which can overwhelm BC squadrons. And 2 LAC wings = ~2000 personnel - or the manpower of 1 BC. That gives you the coverage of 1-2 dozen DDs, and the firepower of a dozen BCs.

At BoMa, 3000 RMN LACs took out a screen of 100 CAs and BCs (about 45 BCs and 55 CAs), or 30,000 men took out 145,000 men. The Havenite screen and the SDs took out 2500 of the LACS, but the Screen was reduced to a handful of hulks. So the loss ratio was closer to 5:29

Yes, a single, well placed shot can kill even the most advanced LAC, killing it's crew instantly. But almost any such hit will also land on a full up warship, and will probably kill more the the 10-12 people on a LAC. As a Screening unit, putting a CL's anti missile capability in 100 units, for the manpower of 2 CLS is economic as can be. The 20 LACs lost to the missile loads of 429 SDs in Raging Justice meant that Honor's SD(p)s were never in danger.

So given the LAC's lethality to sub-wallers, the flexibility of a LAC wing, and it's economy from a personnel standpoint, I don't see LACs going away.

Michael Everett wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:True - but offensive orientally slow LACs

Bolding mine.

...I do not think that word means what you meant it to mean...

...I'm not entirely sure what word you meant to use there.

Just noticed that. Stupid me; not paying attention to what spellcheck offered, and thus reading the word I thought it should be instead of the word it actually was.

I meant "oriented".
offensively oriented slow LACs. (i.e. heavily weighted towards offense at the expense of defense)

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
At what point would the SLN's quantity overcome Manticore's quality? Would a gorilla who can make big babies as fast as the SL even need LACs? If the SLN design warships with an insane throw weight in missiles and CMs, why would they need LACs to thicken defense when warships will do just fine? The RMN needed LACs as screens because they couldn't build traditional screening elements and other ships fast enough. Plus, the RMN has a serious limitation of warm bodies. If a navy can build regular warships fast enough with a big enough throw weight, and if they have so many ships that each offensive has enormous numbers, and if the SL reduces its crew size as well, then LACs aren't needed. The SLN will still be able to continue its doctrine of hypering in and driving straight for the jugular. No LACs allowed. No LACs needed.

LACs are for chumps with small bank accounts and slow build rates.

I don't think the LAC wing is going away. Why - personnel usage and coverage. A LAC wing or 2 can heavily patrol a system with sufficient firepower to overwhelm DDs and CLs while rotating forces and allowing for surge capacity which can overwhelm BC squadrons. And 2 LAC wings = ~2000 personnel - or the manpower of 1 BC. That gives you the coverage of 1-2 dozen DDs, and the firepower of a dozen BCs.

At BoMa, 3000 RMN LACs took out a screen of 100 CAs and BCs (about 45 BCs and 55 CAs), or 30,000 men took out 145,000 men. The Havenite screen and the SDs took out 2500 of the LACS, but the Screen was reduced to a handful of hulks. So the loss ratio was closer to 5:29

Yes, a single, well placed shot can kill even the most advanced LAC, killing it's crew instantly. But almost any such hit will also land on a full up warship, and will probably kill more the the 10-12 people on a LAC. As a Screening unit, putting a CL's anti missile capability in 100 units, for the manpower of 2 CLS is economic as can be. The 20 LACs lost to the missile loads of 429 SDs in Raging Justice meant that Honor's SD(p)s were never in danger.

So given the LAC's lethality to sub-wallers, the flexibility of a LAC wing, and it's economy from a personnel standpoint, I don't see LACs going away.

And the Argument to mine is multi drive and ERM missiles counter LACs outside their engagement scope.

And this is true, but the LERM is a perfect counter for the Catraphract, and it's just a matter of time before the LERM is engineered into the LAC (or more importantly, a LAC version of the LERM is designed - if it hasn't been already (because extended run time is important for off bore firing, which is a trend the LAC missile started. The LERM might be evolved from the LAC missile instead of the LERM evolving the LAC missile)) In time, a LAC DDM or MDM may be possible.

Currently, no peer competitor, and few allies, are fielding LERM or Mk-16 technology. Heck - no one is fielding mk-23 technology that didn't get it from Manticore and only one "now" ally developed the "rough" equivalent of Mk 41 technology on their own.

The LERM still has quite a lifespan ahead of it, and a LERM armed LAC will be a terror for light units for decades, even if it cannot stand against capital units.

Theemile wrote:And the Argument to mine is multi drive and ERM missiles counter LACs outside their engagement scope.

And this is true, but the LERM is a perfect counter for the Catraphract, and it's just a matter of time before the LERM is engineered into the LAC (or more importantly, a LAC version of the LERM is designed - if it hasn't been already (because extended run time is important for off bore firing, which is a trend the LAC missile started. The LERM might be evolved from the LAC missile instead of the LERM evolving the LAC missile)) In time, a LAC DDM or MDM may be possible.

Currently, no peer competitor, and few allies, are fielding LERM or Mk-16 technology. Heck - no one is fielding mk-23 technology that didn't get it from Manticore and only one "now" ally developed the "rough" equivalent of Mk 41 technology on their own.

The LERM still has quite a lifespan ahead of it, and a LERM armed LAC will be a terror for light units for decades, even if it cannot stand against capital units.

Though the 2nd stage of a Cataphract has ERM technology. We haven't seen the MAlign or SLN apply it to normal missiles yet, but if they can build CM derived drives with 50% more endurance it shouldn't take long to adapt that breakthrough to both extended range CMs and ERM/LERMs.

Just using the Cataphract's 2nd stage drive on a CM would give you the 2nd longest range CM we've ever seen.
It's range of 2.7 million km falls between the current RMN/GSN's Mk31 CM (3.5 million km) and their previous generation CM from a year or two ago, the Mk30 (2.3 million km) and it's far ahead of Haven's 2nd war CMs (still around 1.5 million km).

Frankly the gating factor is probably that your extended range missiles need to be physically larger to hold the additional capacitor packs necessary to power the drive longer. With the Cataphract that wasn't an issue because even an oversized CM body is still smaller in diameter than an attack missile; and it turns out the SLN tubes can accept physically longer missiles, so the Cataphracts still fit down the existing missile tubes.


The RMN seems to have scaled their ERM/LERM/Mk31 up evenly and thus they require different (and somewhat larger diameter) tubes. But if the SLN can handle an even longer Cataphract (of the same max diameter) they could presumably apply ERM tech to its first stage as well. Giving the latest Cataphract model first stage an extra 50% run time would boost its powered range all the way out to 54.8 million km from rest (well in excess of the Mk16's 30 million km powered range). (Heck, an ERM/LERM using that same drive, just without the 2nd stage, could already reach 30.6 million km. Though it lacks the ballistic coast capability of a DDM/Cataphract)