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Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by Tstir59 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:56 am | |
Tstir59
Posts: 2
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Hey all,
I'm going through and rereading some of the older Honorverse entries and I just got to the part where Summervale goads Tankersley into punching him. He then demands satisfaction, resulting in the captains unfortunate demise. I remember the first time I read that portion it bothered me but I couldn't figure out why. This time through I realized that it was Summervale that demanded the duel. Now I've always understood that the challenged individual is the one to choose weapons in the duel. And sure enough I went and checked and according to the Code Duello, an 18th century codification of dueling rules in Ireland, the U.S, and Great Britain, Rule 16 states that the challenged chooses the weapon. Because Summervale issued the challenge, Tankersley based on established dueling rules should have had the ability to choose the dueling weapons. As a coup de vitesse practitioner his hands were weapons and would seem to be the obvious choice. If he is required to choose an actual instrument then choose a quarterstalf or something for close in combat. Instead he chooses guns and the expected outcome ensues. So I guess my question is did Weber just forget about the rules of dueling? Did he just ignore them to push the plot along? Or just as (or more) likely, I'm overlooking something. Just looking to see what y'all think as this has been a back-of-brain niggle for a few years. |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by Duckk » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:11 pm | |
Duckk
Posts: 4200
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Dueling in the Star Kingdom is not the same as historical dueling. It's not that David "forgot" anything, it's that dueling arose in the Star Kingdom due to its own circumstances, and consequently its own rules. Its closest analogue would be like gunslingers out in the Wild West meeting to settle things at sundown, because, when dueling arose, the Star Kingdom was very much a frontier colony system where law enforcement could be hours away.
Furthermore, Paul did have control over the protocol, as the challenged party, which is why he selected the Dreyfus protocol. Duels in the Star Kingdom were fought with firearms (hence the Wild West analogy), so there's nothing else for him to choose. For additional context, here's an unarchived post from David regarding the origins of dueling:
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by Tstir59 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:18 pm | |
Tstir59
Posts: 2
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Well thats what I was looking for. Thanks for the long quote. I did find it interesting however that David used the term 'code duello' in that quote without carrying the rules through with it. Maybe he meant it in the sense of a generic 'rules for dueling' versus that term which generally refers to the specific Irish Code Duello.
But in the immortal words of Star Wars... Many many years (in the future) in a galaxy far, far away... rules could obviously change a bit. |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by ThinksMarkedly » Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:23 pm | |
ThinksMarkedly
Posts: 4515
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Hello Tstir59 Welcome to the forum! That's a good point you raised, but the most unusual thing about Summervale was that he was a professional in duelling. That's not a very healthy profession and one people would expect to have long, healthy lives to retirement. He was clearly good. But the problem is whether he could control Murphy. The Law of Averages would eventually catch up with him, even if he didn't run into someone who was at least as good as him, if not better. So just how did he tilt the odds to his favour? |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by kzt » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:38 am | |
kzt
Posts: 11360
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There is a tendency for untrained people to think they are better than they are. Just how good an expert is will come as a shock. And he was careful in his selection of targets and then vanishing afterwards. As an example, I had a shooting instructor who talked about watching one of the legendary pistol masters shooting quarters off a fence rail at 25 yards. From the hip. Thats not the kind of skill that anyone knows how to teach. He suggested we focus on sight alignment. |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by cthia » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:49 am | |
cthia
Posts: 14951
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It was also made clear that the possibility of becoming a professional in duelling is an unintended loophole. Actually it wasn't even a loophole. There simply wasn't enough proof that Summervale was exploiting the system for profit. I'd like to think that even if Honor hadn't killed him he would have been arrested, eventually. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by jtg452 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:33 am | |
jtg452
Posts: 471
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Shooting pistols from the hip can be done and taught. I learned it from an instructor and have passed it on. It's all focused the fundamentals of handgun shooting (proper stance, grip, trigger press) combined with the shooter's natural ability to point where the eye is focused. the thing is, it's a progression from traditional aimed fire. If you can't shoot straight when looking down the sights because you haven't mastered the fundamentals, then you are just going to be making noise if you fire from the hip. You don't raise your arm to eye level and aim your finger when you say, "Look at that!", you just throw it up and point. The hard parts of instinctive or 'point' shooting are learning to focus on a specific point on your target (don't just look at 'the target' but focus on the little orange dot in the center) and learning to trust your hand to be pointed at what your eye is focusing on. I've found that pulling the elbow forward and tucking it in tight against the body front of and above the hipbone helps a lot with alignment. That gets the gun closer to the vertical line of the dominant eye and lessens the left and right variance. Hitting quarters at 25 yards- from any position- with a hand gun is the hard part. Few pistols are accurate enough at that range to do it consistently even when the aim is true. High dollar (like 4 digit or higher), custom built guns like the one-of 1911's from elite gunsmiths are usually only capable of 1" groups at 25 yards. "Service grade" guns like you can buy off of the shelf are usually in the 2-2 1/2" groups at 25 yards. Revolvers are more accurate with 1 1/2" being the norm at that range. Taking that into consideration, you can end up missing even when your aim is true just because of the level of mechanical accuracy the pistol in question is capable of |
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Re: Tankersley and the Code Duello | |
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by Erls » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:13 pm | |
Erls
Posts: 251
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Oddly enough, the same tip is key to carving a Prime Rib. When I was cooking at Glacier National Park the Sous Chef made sure that we all knew that to cut a Prime Rib straight you had to tuck the elbow into the hip keeps the arm alignment straight. |
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