Wormhole Assault: MA Style

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Also, would a 300-gigation warhead be detectable on sensors? Wouldn't that thing leak radiation like there's no tomorrow?

I don't think so, probably not even with today's technology and definitely not with the Honorverse tech.

Today's fusion nukes, AFAIK, are all fission initiated (and often induce a secondary fission in their outer casing). You need the fission to generate the vast amount of high energy X-rays that get directed into the heavy hydrogen isotopes to initiate their fusion. Most of the radiation is in the uranium or plutonium in the fission primary, with a little being in the tritium of the hydrogen secondary. (And then often the outer casing is more uranium, which all the neutrons from the fusion will trigger additional fission in)
However even today's nuclear warheads aren't very radioactive; too much internal radiation could cause them to degrade or fissile before being asked to detonate. In fact there are isotopes that need to be kept out of the core or their excessive radiation will 'poison' it and degrade or eliminate its ability to function as a nuclear weapon. And so while sensitive radiation detectors can detect them from short to moderate distances (maybe a few dozen meters) I don't think even in the vacuum of space you'd be able to reliably detect them from even 10s of km away.

But the Honorverse warheads wouldn't be even that minimal level of radioactive; they may not be radioactive at all until initiated. They're described as a pure fusion gravity implosion design - relying on gravity forces from one-shot overpowered grav generators to rapidly pressurize (and thus heat) the fuel similar to what the mass of a star would do. Depending on the pressures they can generate with their gravity pinch they might not need any tritium in order to cause the hydrogen (or hydrogen and deuterium) to fuse. There might literally be no radioactivity to detect until after the grav implosion compresses the fuel to the point of self fusion. But in any case they wouldn't be putting out dangerous, or even readily detectable, levels of radiation until the moment they trigger the warhead.
Their power output would be determined by the amount of fuel (which has little to no radioactivity) and how far their grav generators can compress it before there's time for the fusion reaction blows the warhead, and those generators, apart. A higher yield warhead would likely be barely, if any, more radiative than a small one.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'm pretty sure the blast in boom-mode nukes was directional. To kill pods, I assume they need a spherical propagation, which means it will fall off with the square of the radius.

Also, would a 300-gigation warhead be detectable on sensors? Wouldn't that thing leak radiation like there's no tomorrow?

Well, yes. But early war weapons had a 15-20 mt yield and it seemed to work at thousands ok KM. Inverse cube law is tough, but 15,000 times larger will produce a big increase.

But blowing down the bubble sidewall might be useful if you have a follow-up.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the Honorverse warheads wouldn't be even that minimal level of radioactive; they may not be radioactive at all until initiated. They're described as a pure fusion gravity implosion design - relying on gravity forces from one-shot overpowered grav generators to rapidly pressurize (and thus heat) the fuel similar to what the mass of a star would do. Depending on the pressures they can generate with their gravity pinch they might not need any tritium in order to cause the hydrogen (or hydrogen and deuterium) to fuse. There might literally be no radioactivity to detect until after the grav implosion compresses the fuel to the point of self fusion. But in any case they wouldn't be putting out dangerous, or even readily detectable, levels of radiation until the moment they trigger the warhead.
Their power output would be determined by the amount of fuel (which has little to no radioactivity) and how far their grav generators can compress it before there's time for the fusion reaction blows the warhead, and those generators, apart. A higher yield warhead would likely be barely, if any, more radiative than a small one.

Good point. I should have remembered we're talking about a fusion bomb powered by an active fusion reactor (at least the Manticoran ones with micro-fusion plants). It shouldn't be too hard to overload it. However, the running fusion reactor is still producing at at minimum neutrino radiation, if not an neutron (depends on the fuel mix).

Maybe a capacitor-based missile wouldn't have that leak.

On the other hand, there's the issue of delivery. A spider may draw too much for a capacitor/battery hybrid, so it may need a running reactor. Though we also know that the graser torpedoes' and Silver Bullet's reactors are stealthy, and so are Ghost Riders, at some distance. The only question is whether such a running reactor is stealthy at the required blast range.

For that matter, is the casing stealthy at that range?

The solution is probably to use the spider to accelerate towards the target, but then shut it down and the reactor once the proper velocity vector is achieved, then go ballistically. That means the attack must be time-on-target and can't be changed after a certain point.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Good point. I should have remembered we're talking about a fusion bomb powered by an active fusion reactor (at least the Manticoran ones with micro-fusion plants). It shouldn't be too hard to overload it. However, the running fusion reactor is still producing at at minimum neutrino radiation, if not an neutron (depends on the fuel mix).

Maybe a capacitor-based missile wouldn't have that leak.

On the other hand, there's the issue of delivery. A spider may draw too much for a capacitor/battery hybrid, so it may need a running reactor. Though we also know that the graser torpedoes' and Silver Bullet's reactors are stealthy, and so are Ghost Riders, at some distance. The only question is whether such a running reactor is stealthy at the required blast range.

For that matter, is the casing stealthy at that range?

The solution is probably to use the spider to accelerate towards the target, but then shut it down and the reactor once the proper velocity vector is achieved, then go ballistically. That means the attack must be time-on-target and can't be changed after a certain point.

Good point, I was considering just the warhead in isolation and didn't consider the missile/drone power source.


The only data point I can think of is that Ghost Rider drones, in their Mistletoe variant, were able to sneak up on Haven's manned Moriarty system defense pod fire control stations (as well as missile pod shoals that weren't sufficiently widely distributed). There was no indication that they were ever detected prior to detonating their "strapped on" warheads and destroying the stations.
However we know those stations were rushed and poorly defended, which might stretch to poor local area sensors, so we can't rule out a warship being able to pick up a GR drone's power source at weapons range.

And even then drones likely have better shielding than missiles - as an MDM isn't expected to be stealthy in flight. (After all you can see its wedge from millions of km. So why would it matter if people could pick up emissions from their micro-fusion plant from, just for example, thousands of km?)

On the gripping hand the Honorverse has some unspecified kind of non-physical rad shielding fields; so who knows how effective those might be at absorbing anything coming out of a reactor. (Though there's some indication that the microfusion plants aren't suitable for use in manned systems; so maybe they aren't well shielded. (Though the man rating issue could be something else, like reliability)

Jonathan_S wrote:The only data point I can think of is that Ghost Rider drones, in their Mistletoe variant, were able to sneak up on Haven's manned Moriarty system defense pod fire control stations (as well as missile pod shoals that weren't sufficiently widely distributed). There was no indication that they were ever detected prior to detonating their "strapped on" warheads and destroying the stations.

Ghost Rider, Mistletoe, and Silver Bullet are known to have snuck up pretty close to their targets. How close exactly, we don't know. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I think that Ghost Riders were known to get as close as 80,000 km from Solarian units and not be detected. The chapter on the Battle of Hypatia when Megan Petersen is talking to whoever survived after she dispatches Gogunov is probably evidence.

But I don't think we were told the range for Mistletoe or Silver Bullet. Either way, those were energy weapon platforms, so they could shoot from tens of thousands of km away. An boom nuke at 80,000 km is worth much less, even if it is partially directed (hemispherically or even quarter-spherically).

And even then drones likely have better shielding than missiles - as an MDM isn't expected to be stealthy in flight. (After all you can see its wedge from millions of km. So why would it matter if people could pick up emissions from their micro-fusion plant from, just for example, thousands of km?)

Indeed, but if one were attempting the strategy of an area denial weapon to take out the pre-deployed missile pods, they may have some specialised platforms for that. Both Misletoe and Silver Bullet were specialised units, after all.

Another difference, though, would be that there were one or two of those weapons, whereas taking out the pods would probably require dozens.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Another difference, though, would be that there were one or two of those weapons, whereas taking out the pods would probably require dozens.

If a 15 mt mdm warhead gets a 1000 km kill radius a 300 GT warhead gets you a 25,000 km diameter kill radius. But consider if the warhead was carefully optimized to produce the magic soft kill. Is it reasonable that be emphasizing the production of magic soft kill radiation that you could get twice that? So a sphere 100,000 km across.

How far apart will people park their missile pods? If you park them way the hell apart then you can kill them by just flying an MDM or ten through the pod field. So presumably you’d want them inside you PDLC range, right? So how big can the field be?

Of curse, there really isn’t any need to worry about the missile pods if you can burn open the bubble and then have the follow-on right behind it hard kill the fort.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The only data point I can think of is that Ghost Rider drones, in their Mistletoe variant, were able to sneak up on Haven's manned Moriarty system defense pod fire control stations (as well as missile pod shoals that weren't sufficiently widely distributed). There was no indication that they were ever detected prior to detonating their "strapped on" warheads and destroying the stations.

Ghost Rider, Mistletoe, and Silver Bullet are known to have snuck up pretty close to their targets. How close exactly, we don't know. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I think that Ghost Riders were known to get as close as 80,000 km from Solarian units and not be detected. The chapter on the Battle of Hypatia when Megan Petersen is talking to whoever survived after she dispatches Gogunov is probably evidence.

But I don't think we were told the range for Mistletoe or Silver Bullet. Either way, those were energy weapon platforms, so they could shoot from tens of thousands of km away. An boom nuke at 80,000 km is worth much less, even if it is partially directed (hemispherically or even quarter-spherically).

And even then drones likely have better shielding than missiles - as an MDM isn't expected to be stealthy in flight. (After all you can see its wedge from millions of km. So why would it matter if people could pick up emissions from their micro-fusion plant from, just for example, thousands of km?)

Indeed, but if one were attempting the strategy of an area denial weapon to take out the pre-deployed missile pods, they may have some specialised platforms for that. Both Misletoe and Silver Bullet were specialised units, after all.

Another difference, though, would be that there were one or two of those weapons, whereas taking out the pods would probably require dozens.

At the Beowulf terminus, drones were inside 20,000km.

in 1860, Burn nukes had a 10,000 km standoff range against sidewalls. As I mentioned earlier, laserheads use the same gravity focusing technology to focus their ignition bombs, so modern burn warheads probably have a further standoff distance (especially modern Manty ones with increased gravity focusing).

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Good point. I should have remembered we're talking about a fusion bomb powered by an active fusion reactor (at least the Manticoran ones with micro-fusion plants). It shouldn't be too hard to overload it. However, the running fusion reactor is still producing at at minimum neutrino radiation, if not an neutron (depends on the fuel mix).

Maybe a capacitor-based missile wouldn't have that leak.

On the other hand, there's the issue of delivery. A spider may draw too much for a capacitor/battery hybrid, so it may need a running reactor. Though we also know that the graser torpedoes' and Silver Bullet's reactors are stealthy, and so are Ghost Riders, at some distance. The only question is whether such a running reactor is stealthy at the required blast range.

For that matter, is the casing stealthy at that range?

The solution is probably to use the spider to accelerate towards the target, but then shut it down and the reactor once the proper velocity vector is achieved, then go ballistically. That means the attack must be time-on-target and can't be changed after a certain point.

Good point, I was considering just the warhead in isolation and didn't consider the missile/drone power source.


The only data point I can think of is that Ghost Rider drones, in their Mistletoe variant, were able to sneak up on Haven's manned Moriarty system defense pod fire control stations (as well as missile pod shoals that weren't sufficiently widely distributed). There was no indication that they were ever detected prior to detonating their "strapped on" warheads and destroying the stations.
However we know those stations were rushed and poorly defended, which might stretch to poor local area sensors, so we can't rule out a warship being able to pick up a GR drone's power source at weapons range.

And even then drones likely have better shielding than missiles - as an MDM isn't expected to be stealthy in flight. (After all you can see its wedge from millions of km. So why would it matter if people could pick up emissions from their micro-fusion plant from, just for example, thousands of km?)

On the gripping hand the Honorverse has some unspecified kind of non-physical rad shielding fields; so who knows how effective those might be at absorbing anything coming out of a reactor. (Though there's some indication that the microfusion plants aren't suitable for use in manned systems; so maybe they aren't well shielded. (Though the man rating issue could be something else, like reliability)

The heavens are HUGE! Space is big! Sensor technology has to be directed. Abigail proved that when she ordered for scans to be focused "on this area... here." The immensity of the heavens cannot be sampled by sensors simultaneously. They will not be detected, even if they leak, unless someone so happens to be sampling those particular vectors.

.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I still maintain that the author teased me that the LDs are ready. That is a fleet of 100 Spiders. If they are broken down into Wolfpacks of six, that is 16.6 packs. If six of those six-packs are sent to the MBS plus a pack of colliers, I don't think that the forts will survive that kind of party, if indeed the forts are the objective. If the party is indeed a surprise, then bye-bye forts.

And we repeat there's simply no way they are ready, by the conclusion of UH. We know that they were still in construction at the launch of Oyster Bay, around November 1921. We know those were the first LDs ever, because Oyster Bay had none to use. We know Manticore was the fastest builder of SDs, at 9 million tonnes in just under 24 months. We know that the LDs are bigger than that.

So the only way for them to be ready now (end of UH) is if the MAlign went "all in" in a single, untested strategy, laying down 100 ships and building them simultaneously before the first was ready and had finished its shake-down cruise to find bugs. That would be incredibly reckless and not at all in alignment with the Alignment's past practices (pun intended).

If you mean "now" as in "10 years after the end of UH" or even more than that (which would allow for Raoul and Katherine to be young adults), then I give you a "shmaybe." Except that the GA won't let them stay hidden for so long -- we'll need to revisit this the day "To End in Fire" is released (because we're all going to buy it and read in one day, won't we?)

I think you're missing the point. Surely you are not suggesting the LDs are not ready "in his head." And if the author has completed his brainstorm about the "composition" of the LDs, then he is certainly free to unleash them upon the Galaxy when he pleases. By proxy. Which means, what you are up in arms about is the particular book in which the Spiders will hatch. Whatever book that is is when the shit hits the fan. Whether it is 10 or 15 or more years into the future doesn't matter. It's a drop in the bucket against the MAs timetable. Which is certainly what the author meant when he says he will have to get back to me, "at some point."

I will only acquire "End in Fire" if it is the dead tree version. You know my stance on that. I like the rustling of pages on the first read. Paper cuts allow me to be close to the battle suffering injuries right along with the crew. Besides, flinging an ebook against the bulkheads has about as much effect as angrily hanging up a cellphone. Oh how I miss slamming down the receivers of yesteryear's one-ton telephones.

Read in one day? Impossible! For me. I literally become the character, remember? If a key character dies, I'll have to put the book down for a while, lest it gets damaged by the flood that is sure to follow. And each successive attempt to wade through can be worse. I'm not wired like you guys are. Perhaps if your first read is a dead tree version, you'd be in the right mindset. Leave your slipstick sheathed on your first read.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Also, would a 300-gigation warhead be detectable on sensors? Wouldn't that thing leak radiation like there's no tomorrow?

I don't think so, probably not even with today's technology and definitely not with the Honorverse tech.

Today's fusion nukes, AFAIK, are all fission initiated (and often induce a secondary fission in their outer casing). You need the fission to generate the vast amount of high energy X-rays that get directed into the heavy hydrogen isotopes to initiate their fusion. Most of the radiation is in the uranium or plutonium in the fission primary, with a little being in the tritium of the hydrogen secondary. (And then often the outer casing is more uranium, which all the neutrons from the fusion will trigger additional fission in)
However even today's nuclear warheads aren't very radioactive; too much internal radiation could cause them to degrade or fissile before being asked to detonate. In fact there are isotopes that need to be kept out of the core or their excessive radiation will 'poison' it and degrade or eliminate its ability to function as a nuclear weapon. And so while sensitive radiation detectors can detect them from short to moderate distances (maybe a few dozen meters) I don't think even in the vacuum of space you'd be able to reliably detect them from even 10s of km away.

But the Honorverse warheads wouldn't be even that minimal level of radioactive; they may not be radioactive at all until initiated. They're described as a pure fusion gravity implosion design - relying on gravity forces from one-shot overpowered grav generators to rapidly pressurize (and thus heat) the fuel similar to what the mass of a star would do. Depending on the pressures they can generate with their gravity pinch they might not need any tritium in order to cause the hydrogen (or hydrogen and deuterium) to fuse. There might literally be no radioactivity to detect until after the grav implosion compresses the fuel to the point of self fusion. But in any case they wouldn't be putting out dangerous, or even readily detectable, levels of radiation until the moment they trigger the warhead.
Their power output would be determined by the amount of fuel (which has little to no radioactivity) and how far their grav generators can compress it before there's time for the fusion reaction blows the warhead, and those generators, apart. A higher yield warhead would likely be barely, if any, more radiative than a small one.

I doubt any leak would be detected at even a kilometer unless onboard sensors are specifically tuned for it, which I don't think they would be. Remember, space is already filled with solar and cosmic radiation which would overpower and taint any readings from a leaking reactor unless you are right on top of it.