Escort Carrier Modification

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:So many questions......Since the LACs that came with a give CLAC to a deployment point represent part of the mass the CLAC is designed to carry into hyperspace, why would it be a problem to "just" tractor them to the hull and take them into hyper as part of a hot extraction? They don't actually have to go "that far" in hyper to recover them. Unless they are actually in a gravity wave, they could change their vector right after entering hyper and after some amount of time in hyper drop to N-space for a short time to bring their brood inside before going back to hyper and running like hell. It truly doesn't matter which hanger a particular LAC ends up in...you can alway sort them out in a friendly environment.

If you're outside a grav wave there's no need for that drop to N-space.

We saw in HAE that even the LACs Wayfarer carried back then had no trouble operating in hyper when in a rift (aka not in a 'wave). That's how Honor was able to detach them to cover the hiding Atlas-class liner while Wayfarer lured the pursuing BC away. The LACs seem to be able to do everything on their own in hyper except
a) enter/survive a grav wave and
b) change hyper bands/leave hyper.
(I mean, they've got the same sensor range limitations a larger warships would in hyper; but that's not going to affect them when close enough to begin docking proceedures)

So the LACs can un-tractor themselves and them come in for docking in hyper just about as easily as they can in N-space. (Again, assuming they're not in a grav wave)

Another neative is, most likely, LACs would probably lack Washawski (sic) sensors to detect grav waves and disturbances - because why should a optimized sub-light combatant waste any space on them? This could be problematic for long duration operations in Hyper, especially as an advanced scout. As long as they are operating with a hyper-combatant (or hanging close to a Merchie) this should not be an issue though.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If you're outside a grav wave there's no need for that drop to N-space.

We saw in HAE that even the LACs Wayfarer carried back then had no trouble operating in hyper when in a rift (aka not in a 'wave). That's how Honor was able to detach them to cover the hiding Atlas-class liner while Wayfarer lured the pursuing BC away. The LACs seem to be able to do everything on their own in hyper except
a) enter/survive a grav wave and
b) change hyper bands/leave hyper.
(I mean, they've got the same sensor range limitations a larger warships would in hyper; but that's not going to affect them when close enough to begin docking proceedures)

So the LACs can un-tractor themselves and them come in for docking in hyper just about as easily as they can in N-space. (Again, assuming they're not in a grav wave)

Another neative is, most likely, LACs would probably lack Washawski (sic) sensors to detect grav waves and disturbances - because why should a optimized sub-light combatant waste any space on them? This could be problematic for long duration operations in Hyper, especially as an advanced scout. As long as they are operating with a hyper-combatant (or hanging close to a Merchie) this should not be an issue though.

Very good point. Those detectors seem to be somehow different from normal grav sensors; and there's no reason to install them on a ship that's not supposed to be running around in hyper. (I'm going to go add your point add to my post, for future reference)

Though even if I could detect grav waves I wouldn't want to be wandering far in hyperspace in a ship that can't leave on its own .

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Another negative is, most likely, LACs would probably lack Washawski (sic) sensors to detect grav waves and disturbances - because why should a optimized sub-light combatant waste any space on them? This could be problematic for long duration operations in Hyper, especially as an advanced scout. As long as they are operating with a hyper-combatant (or hanging close to a Merchie) this should not be an issue though.

Very good point. Those detectors seem to be somehow different from normal grav sensors; and there's no reason to install them on a ship that's not supposed to be running around in hyper. (I'm going to go add your point add to my post, for future reference)

Though even if I could detect grav waves I wouldn't want to be wandering far in hyperspace in a ship that can't leave on its own .

If using LACs in grav waves is a standard development, I would want a model with warshawskis so I could put it on point and have it operate independently with a significantly margin of safety.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Very good point. Those detectors seem to be somehow different from normal grav sensors; and there's no reason to install them on a ship that's not supposed to be running around in hyper. (I'm going to go add your point add to my post, for future reference)

Though even if I could detect grav waves I wouldn't want to be wandering far in hyperspace in a ship that can't leave on its own .

If using LACs in grav waves is a standard development, I would want a model with warshawskis so I could put it on point and have it operate independently with a significantly margin of safety.

Well the LACs definitely can't operate in a grav wave. That requires a sail and none of the LACs mount the larger Alpha node which you need to create those.

So a Warshaski in a LAC would only be for the purpose of avoiding accidentally blundering into a grav wave. (A good thing to avoid, as crossing its boundary would result in the instantaneous destruction of the LAC).

However if for some reason using LACs in hyper became a standard development then it might well make sense to try to shoehorn in a Warshaski into them so they don't have to rely on updates from whatever star ship they're operating near to stay clear of rogue waves.
Still, except in emergencies, I personally tend to doubt it'll become routine to operate LACs in hyper -- and the occasional emergency probably can't justify the trade-offs it'd take to install a grav-wave detector into all your LACs.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:

If using LACs in grav waves is a standard development, I would want a model with warshawskis so I could put it on point and have it operate independently with a significantly margin of safety.

Well the LACs definitely can't operate in a grav wave. That requires a sail and none of the LACs mount the larger Alpha node which you need to create those.

So a Warshaski in a LAC would only be for the purpose of avoiding accidentally blundering into a grav wave. (A good thing to avoid, as crossing its boundary would result in the instantaneous destruction of the LAC).

However if for some reason using LACs in hyper became a standard development then it might well make sense to try to shoehorn in a Warshaski into them so they don't have to rely on updates from whatever star ship they're operating near to stay clear of rogue waves.
Still, except in emergencies, I personally tend to doubt it'll become routine to operate LACs in hyper -- and the occasional emergency probably can't justify the trade-offs it'd take to install a grav-wave detector into all your LACs.

sorry meant hyper, wrote grav wave. mind already on weekend mode.

Jonathan_S wrote:
However if for some reason using LACs in hyper became a standard development then it might well make sense to try to shoehorn in a Warshaski into them so they don't have to rely on updates from whatever star ship they're operating near to stay clear of rogue waves.
Still, except in emergencies, I personally tend to doubt it'll become routine to operate LACs in hyper -- and the occasional emergency probably can't justify the trade-offs it'd take to install a grav-wave detector into all your LACs.

If the first war had continued in the same manner as the first 1/2 of the war had, I can see the Wayfarer class of AMCs getting a "hyper specialist" LAC variant. The AMC's initial concept was to replace convoy escorts in Fleet trains and convoys near the warzone, so it would make sense to have LACs which could ride herd on the convoy in hyper and stand as forward, tail, and outrider pickets on the formation - as such they would need washawskis for long term operation.


But with the current progression of the story, we probably will not see them. You would need to have a merchant powerhouse, with strong shipbuilding capability, but in a protracted war with a near-peer opponent, in a war taking place over a large theater, and need to make sub-optimal short term decisions for long term problems. It might happen again, but not in the forseeable future.

Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH I suspect a compensator field might stretch more than 10s of meters (at least if you're willing to drop your acceleration). An SD can tow 10 pods within its wedge without impacting its acceleration (so, presumably within the normal shape of the compensation field)

Flag in Exile wrote:superdreadnoughts were big enough they could actually tractor the pods inside their wedges, where they had no effect at all on acceleration

But an SD can tow more if it doesn't tuck them all in, but back there they're reducing its acceleration (presumably through distorting its compensator field)

Still, thinking about it some more, the compensation field probably can't protect the LAC from the acceleration of getting speared in passing by the CLAC's tractor, even if the LAC is close enough to be fully within that compensated zone. After all while the field somehow protects the ship (and its occupants) from the drive's acceleration it doesn't prevent people or objects within the ship from having intertia and experiencing acceleration due to things like human muscles or grav drivers. So whether or not the LACs within the field if a tractor tries to nearly instantly adjust its velocity by any significant amount it's probably going to go very badly for LAC and crew (assuming the tractor mount doesn't just catastrophically fail from the abuse)

I think there are three distinct possibilities, not two.

First, inside the mothership's compensated volume. Preferably inside the hull, so the compensators don't need to be extended any. That allows for the best acceleration the ship can produce. Pods and LACs tractored to the hull can probably avoid having the compensator field extend more than tens of metres, so they probably are still in their "default" configuration and will compensate the ship's regular military thrust, but if the compensator field needs to be extended outwards, then I expect its efficiency will drop. Anyway, any pod or LAC in this condition is fully compensated and does not suffer from acceleration.

Second, inside the mothership's wedge, but not the compensated volume. In this condition, the pod is suffering the full acceleration of the ship, which is not affected. Therefore, it's unsuitable for LACs that have had to drop their wedges: it is the same as a ship that lost its compensator and would turn any human occupants to mush. Whether the LAC hardware itself can survive such acceleration is unknown -- I wouldn't design it to in the first place. Pods and missiles clearly are designed to survive at least 750 gravities.

Third, outside the mothership's wedge. In this condition, the wedge is dragging a mass in real space and therefore needs will produce a smaller delta-v for the same amount of force or energy applied, per unit of time. This would explain why tractoring pods outside the wedge causes the ship to lose acceleration. And like the second case above, this is only possible for pods whose contents are designed to withstand the acceleration, because they won't be compensated.

Still, if plotted correctly a LAC should be able to overtake from astern, on a parallel course that's just slightly off to the side of the CLAC; it could then cut its wedge and if the navigators plotted everything right the continued acceleration of the CLAC would cause the velocities would match just as the LAC was abreast of the CLAC. If it's close enough at that moment to be within the CLAC's compensator field it could safely be grabbed without the CLAC dropping its accel. But now we're back to how large can that field be, and how close would a captain be willing to let a 20,000 ton ballistic LAC get to his precious CLAC (even if the courses never intersect)?

The dual inverse is also possible: the CLAC overtakes the LACs from astern, if the CLAC is accelerating. The LACs race ahead and slow down to a velocity that is just above what the CLAC has, then go ballistic. The CLAC will continue to accelerate and will overtake them. At that point, I'd cut the CLAC's acceleration, while the LACs tractor themselves to the hull. This shouldn't take more than a minute, at most.

I don't see how LACs would be tactically effective in hyper since they have to be careful of rogue waves. It would seem that a LAC would have to tread lightly, which should mean maneuvering, or their freedom of maneuvering in the midst of battle could be as deadly to them as their foe. And any foe should be as aware of that fact as the LAC. Any enemy can lead the LAC into a rogue wave. As Kirk led Kahn into the Nebula to even the odds.

cthia wrote:I don't see how LACs would be tactically effective in hyper since they have to be careful of rogue waves. It would seem that a LAC would have to tread lightly, which should mean maneuvering, or their freedom of maneuvering in the midst of battle could be as deadly to them as their foe. And any foe should be as aware of that fact as the LAC. Any enemy can lead the LAC into a rogue wave. As Kirk led Kahn into the Nebula to even the odds.

The problem is there's never a rouge wave around when you want one. (And even with sails it seems your ship can't survive entering a rouge either - so you'd have to maneuver such that you stayed clear of it but the pursuit angle of the LAC took led it into the wave; tricky.)

Honor Among Enemies wrote:Most grav waves were "locked," part of a web of mutually anchored and anchoring stress patterns which forced its strands to retain fixed relationships to one another. They moved over the years, but slowly and gradually, as a whole and in predictable fashion.
Rogue waves didn't. Rogue waves were spurs or flares thrown off by locked waves; they weren't part of the web. They could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed, and while most hyper-physicists believed rogue waves were, in fact, cyclical phenomena whose timing could be predicted once enough data had been accumulated, accumulating data on them was exactly what merchant skippers were most eager to avoid.
But the Selker Rift couldn't be avoided, and so ships moving between the Empire and Confederacy crossed it under impeller drive at extremely low velocities—on the order of .16 c—in order to be sure they could dodge if the Selker Shear suddenly appeared on their detectors. It meant they took over five days just to cross the Rift, but it also meant they made it alive.

Actually it probably wouldn't mater if you could survive by using your sail, because even though the LAC apparently can't see the 'wave it can definitely see your wedge and sails; so it'd see you switch over and that would be a warning to sheer off. (Though you could potentially fool a LAC into breaking of by doing that)

Ships try their best to avoid being anywhere near rogue waves, there almost assuredly won't be one close enough to be tactically exploitable should combat break out between warships and LACs in hyper. And even though we saw hours of chase and combat in the Selker Rift, the shipping lane specifically identified as being a high risk area for a rouge wave, the rogue never make an appearance. If you can't see one over the course of hours where they're most commonly found what chance is there that you can locate one and then maneuver to lure a LAC into it, before the LAC runs you down and combat is resolved one way or the other?




Combat in hyper is damned rare anyway, and I don't see LACs becoming a routine part of it even when it does occur. But rogue waves wouldn't be the reasons as they'd effectively never come into play; since you wouldn't be around them.

Jonathan_S wrote:Ships try their best to avoid being anywhere near rogue waves, there almost assuredly won't be one close enough to be tactically exploitable should combat break out between warships and LACs in hyper. And even though we saw hours of chase and combat in the Selker Rift, the shipping lane specifically identified as being a high risk area for a rouge wave, the rogue never make an appearance. If you can't see one over the course of hours where they're most commonly found what chance is there that you can locate one and then maneuver to lure a LAC into it, before the LAC runs you down and combat is resolved one way or the other?

Combat in hyper is damned rare anyway, and I don't see LACs becoming a routine part of it even when it does occur. But rogue waves wouldn't be the reasons as they'd effectively never come into play; since you wouldn't be around them.

The Warshawskis have a detection range of 8 light-minutes. So an engagement at 0.2c would give you 40 minutes of warning that there's a grav wave. The LACs would not even get caught unawares and would never cross into the wave. Note that for geometry, this means the furthest point they can catch up with their foe is far short of the wave, since they have to reduce speed and avoid entering the wave in the first place. They must either stop relative to it or reduce speed such that their CLAC can catch up with them and they can be brought in before they ballistically go into the wave. And you can't dock to a ship that is overtaking you at 30,000 km/s relative.

All engagements must also be at low speed relative to the particle background. In hyperspace, exceeding 0.6c is dangerous (I doubt destruction is immediate; most likely it's stochastic and increases exponentially as speed increases). It's possible one could have LACs with specially fitted particle screens so they can survive higher speeds, but unless such a thing is much easier in smaller ships than in bigger ones, it's highly unlikely it is possible at all. Remember that the majority of the time in shipping is spent at cruising speed at the highest band the ship can reach, so if it were possible to cheaply increase that by 16% from 0.6 to 0.7, they would have.

I'm not saying that capital ships couldn't engage at close to cruising speed. It's possible, but highly unlikely, for several reasons. First, there's little range for overtake velocity: even if the opponent is slightly slower, they have enough time to climb to relative rest to their attackers. Second, this applies to missiles too: even though they may get to 0.8c, the 0.2c overtake is paltry and would mean a long ballistic flight. Third, even if you succeed in disabling a ship at cruising speeds or close to it, mounting SAR will be impossible because Newton's First Law still applies. Fourth and most importantly, the pursuers have the advantage, since their missiles have the full 0.6c they can decelerate from and attack their pursuers.

No, what I meant is that LAC engagements won´t happen at cruise speeds because they will be even more limited than missiles from the paragraph above. And unlike shooting back, one wouldn't launch for attack LACs at cruising speed, because then you can't recover them. Those would be suicide missions (using them to thicken missile defensive is another story). So what this means is that if LACs are in play, the speed of all combatants is low enough that they will have enough time of warning of where rogue grav waves are.

One other detail is that even if luring LACs into a grav wave were a tactic, it would be dangerous one. The ship in question must transition from wedge to sails. However quick that is, it may not be quick enough to avoid missiles that are time-on-target to arrive at the exact moment they're supposed to transition!