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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:55 pm

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Space is very big

If you have no idea where the person attacking you is located you are doomed. Consider you are on the field in a giant stadium and somewhere in the boxes or the stands there is one or more camouflaged sniper with a a silenced rifle and a radio, and outside he has a mortar platoon. How will you know when the fight is on? You can have whatever gun you want, how is this going to end?

If it’s energy weapons you will never complete the launch cycle before you get destroyed.

If it’s predeployed pods they are going to be all launched and running at you before you can do anything. So you are going to take whatever they decided to give you.

If it’s a torpedo the launching ship is probably long gone before it fillets your ship.

If you let them set the terms of the engagement you will lose. So perimeter detection is critical. (But is very hard) , then sweeping the inner light hour or so. Which is also hard. Then maintaining defenses. Which means your fleet units never have cold nodes, never go into orbit, and the bubbles around the critical nodes need to be always up. You might notice the RMN has not done this.

INote that if you are person entering a system with one or more spiders then it’s likely to be exciting, as you have no idea if any are there. The only way you will know for sure is the first flaming datum.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:49 am

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Theemile wrote:Edit: Rereading your post, you meant protection specifically created via the spider. The spider is hundreds of thousands of specially modified short ranged tractors - short like as in measured in meters. Laserheads explode and turn into lasers 20-60 THOUSAND KM out from the target, so there is no way a Spider is going to interfere with a Laserhead missile wedge.
Besides, the amount of gravitational energy produced by an active spider drive is barely noticable, where a sidewall is visible for millions of KM. Any defense it may provide would be negligible against a weapon designed to bore through Capital Sidewalls and still create significant damage.

I think that's a bit off - though I agree the spider drive isn't going to be a useful anti-missile system.

Two relevant quotes
Mission of Honor - Ch. 28 wrote:the spider generated no impeller wedge. Instead of using two inclined planes of focused gravity to create bands of stressed space around the pocket of normal-space which surrounded a ship, the spider used literally dozens of nodes to project spurs or spikes of intensely focused gravity. For all intents and purposes, each of those spurs was almost like generating a tractor or a presser beam, except that no one in his right mind had ever imagined tractors or pressers that powerful. In fact, at a sufficiently short range, they would have made quite serviceable energy weapons, because these focused, directional beams were powerful enough to create their own tiny foci—effectively, holes in the “real” universe—in which space itself was so highly stressed that the beams punched clear through to the alpha wall, the interface between normal-space and hyper-space.

And then in a 2011 pearl 'A grab-bag of gravitics questions', RFC expands slightly on that
runsforcelery wrote:They will severely damage unprotected hulls; they will inflict no damage to something on the other side of an operational sidewall, and they will have zero effect on an operational wedge.
[... and are only effective] at suicidally short range against a target unprotected by wedge or sidewall
[...] think of the spider drive as an even less efficient grav lance. That is, any weaponized version of it is going to have an insanely short range, be largely ineffectual against a ship with intact sidewalls, require a huge amount of shipboard mass, and generally make a lot less sense as a weapon than a graser or a laser. Basically, trying to weaponize the spider drive would be analogous to attempting to design the perfect crossbow with which to take on someone with a Barret .50 rifle. It could be a really nice crossbow and still perform… sub-optimally. <G>"


Suicidality or insanely short range still sounds like further that mere meters. It might even be as far as 20 - 30,000 km. OTOH there are only dozens of them on a ship - and they're seem to be a pretty point effect (and one that sounds like they won't bother the missile's wedge; so they'd need a direct hit on the missile body); and they're designed as a propulsion system; there's no reason to expect the emitters to be able to slew quickly and accurately enough to put a spider drive beam onto a tiny target closing at a sizable fraction of the speed of light.


So even in the best case they'd seem to be less effective than using broadside energy mounts against missiles -- and that's something that's done, but it's also something that's so ineffective it rarely impacts a missile defense enough to be worthy of mention. (And it's entirely likely that their insanely, suicidality, close range is less than the 30,000 km a modern laser head stands off; which would make them useless against the most common warhead type)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:05 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:Edit: Rereading your post, you meant protection specifically created via the spider. The spider is hundreds of thousands of specially modified short ranged tractors - short like as in measured in meters. Laserheads explode and turn into lasers 20-60 THOUSAND KM out from the target, so there is no way a Spider is going to interfere with a Laserhead missile wedge.
Besides, the amount of gravitational energy produced by an active spider drive is barely noticable, where a sidewall is visible for millions of KM. Any defense it may provide would be negligible against a weapon designed to bore through Capital Sidewalls and still create significant damage.

I think that's a bit off - though I agree the spider drive isn't going to be a useful anti-missile system.

Two relevant quotes
Mission of Honor - Ch. 28 wrote:the spider generated no impeller wedge. Instead of using two inclined planes of focused gravity to create bands of stressed space around the pocket of normal-space which surrounded a ship, the spider used literally dozens of nodes to project spurs or spikes of intensely focused gravity. For all intents and purposes, each of those spurs was almost like generating a tractor or a presser beam, except that no one in his right mind had ever imagined tractors or pressers that powerful. In fact, at a sufficiently short range, they would have made quite serviceable energy weapons, because these focused, directional beams were powerful enough to create their own tiny foci—effectively, holes in the “real” universe—in which space itself was so highly stressed that the beams punched clear through to the alpha wall, the interface between normal-space and hyper-space.

And then in a 2011 pearl 'A grab-bag of gravitics questions', RFC expands slightly on that
runsforcelery wrote:They will severely damage unprotected hulls; they will inflict no damage to something on the other side of an operational sidewall, and they will have zero effect on an operational wedge.
[... and are only effective] at suicidally short range against a target unprotected by wedge or sidewall
[...] think of the spider drive as an even less efficient grav lance. That is, any weaponized version of it is going to have an insanely short range, be largely ineffectual against a ship with intact sidewalls, require a huge amount of shipboard mass, and generally make a lot less sense as a weapon than a graser or a laser. Basically, trying to weaponize the spider drive would be analogous to attempting to design the perfect crossbow with which to take on someone with a Barret .50 rifle. It could be a really nice crossbow and still perform… sub-optimally. <G>"


Suicidality or insanely short range still sounds like further that mere meters. It might even be as far as 20 - 30,000 km. OTOH there are only dozens of them on a ship - and they're seem to be a pretty point effect (and one that sounds like they won't bother the missile's wedge; so they'd need a direct hit on the missile body); and they're designed as a propulsion system; there's no reason to expect the emitters to be able to slew quickly and accurately enough to put a spider drive beam onto a tiny target closing at a sizable fraction of the speed of light.


So even in the best case they'd seem to be less effective than using broadside energy mounts against missiles -- and that's something that's done, but it's also something that's so ineffective it rarely impacts a missile defense enough to be worthy of mention. (And it's entirely likely that their insanely, suicidality, close range is less than the 30,000 km a modern laser head stands off; which would make them useless against the most common warhead type)

Yes, you nailed it on the reread Theemile. My apology for not making it clear.

At any rate, what if all of the above speculation is when the Spider is in its normal operating mode, i.e., when it is running silent. Otherwise, what if it can create a very focused band of gravity in an emergency condition that extends beyond a missile's standoff range. Let's call it "revving the engine." :D

Of course the Spider would be less stealthy then, if at all at that point, but it is better than being dead. After it survives the avalanche, it can always choose to "dive and run silent," again.

.

Edited for more clarity.

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:23 am

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kzt wrote:Space is very big

If you have no idea where the person attacking you is located you are doomed. Consider you are on the field in a giant stadium and somewhere in the boxes or the stands there is one or more camouflaged sniper with a a silenced rifle and a radio, and outside he has a mortar platoon. How will you know when the fight is on? You can have whatever gun you want, how is this going to end?

If it’s energy weapons you will never complete the launch cycle before you get destroyed.

If it’s predeployed pods they are going to be all launched and running at you before you can do anything. So you are going to take whatever they decided to give you.

If it’s a torpedo the launching ship is probably long gone before it fillets your ship.

If you let them set the terms of the engagement you will lose. So perimeter detection is critical. (But is very hard) , then sweeping the inner light hour or so. Which is also hard. Then maintaining defenses. Which means your fleet units never have cold nodes, never go into orbit, and the bubbles around the critical nodes need to be always up. You might notice the RMN has not done this.

INote that if you are person entering a system with one or more spiders then it’s likely to be exciting, as you have no idea if any are there. The only way you will know for sure is the first flaming datum.

Exactly! I just love that flaming datum.

That's a sobering analogy. What's more, in that scenario even if the location is known and you got eyes on the target, it may be difficult not to lose him because of his movements, even after you have identified what he is wearing.

With a Spider, you don't know where it is and you have no idea how it is maneuvering. Radar has to be directed. Finding a needle in a haystack takes time, even when you are searching with equipment that is reliable. But when the entire system is the haystack you are screwed. If you have to rely on the Spider making a mistake before you can engage it, you are screwed. Flaming datum will be the announcement.


If a warship can infiltrate your system and move about with impunity, you are screwed. And if the infiltration is unbeknownst, you are totally screwed.

****** *

Your comment about cold nodes. Of course we know why the RMN can't keep their nodes hot all of the time. Even the mighty Manticore has budget constraints. And maintenance issues. I shudder to think of the cost of America remaining at DDFCON 1 indefinitely, and how effective it would be after a long time of "calling wolf" and nothing happening. It would also critically wear down manpower who are ever chasing after farts.

As I posted before, I guess this would correspond to the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of each ship. Is it the same for all ships?

Whenever I think of the whole thing, I can't seem to shake the Waka Waka Waka sound of PACMAN gobbling up widgets, sprockets, cogs and nodes.

At any rate, would keeping warm nodes instead of hot make any difference?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:29 pm

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cthia wrote:At any rate, what if all of the above speculation is when the Spider is in its normal operating mode, i.e., when it is running silent. Otherwise, what if it can create a very focused band of gravity in an emergency condition that extends beyond a missile's standoff range. Let's call it "revving the engine." :D

Of course the Spider would be less stealthy then, if at all at that point, but it is better than being dead. After it survives the avalanche, it can always choose to "dive and run silent," again.
.


Well, having a new shield system would come in handy with the million-gravity accelerating missiles and the 3-million km grasers that you're postulating that they could have created.

Any of those technologies would be a game-changer. What you're describing is basically the ability to interpose a wedge at will, without rolling the ship. Actually, it would need to be a bubblewall at will, since missiles on terminal acquisition would be attacking from multiple angles, not from the same one. In any case, the technology for "bubblewall at will and stop acceleration" already exists and has a name: bubblewall. We don't know how exactly a bubblewall is created, only that it's not a pair of node rings. It's likely to be created in much the same way that side, stern and bow walls are created, which are probably projectors. So I don't see any reason why a ship couldn't mount a bubblewall system, if it needs to.

If you're thinking of using the spider tractors as point defence instead of a shield, you have to say why you think they'd be better at point defence than PDLCs.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:09 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:At any rate, what if all of the above speculation is when the Spider is in its normal operating mode, i.e., when it is running silent. Otherwise, what if it can create a very focused band of gravity in an emergency condition that extends beyond a missile's standoff range. Let's call it "revving the engine." :D

Of course the Spider would be less stealthy then, if at all at that point, but it is better than being dead. After it survives the avalanche, it can always choose to "dive and run silent," again.
.


Well, having a new shield system would come in handy with the million-gravity accelerating missiles and the 3-million km grasers that you're postulating that they could have created.

Any of those technologies would be a game-changer. What you're describing is basically the ability to interpose a wedge at will, without rolling the ship. Actually, it would need to be a bubblewall at will, since missiles on terminal acquisition would be attacking from multiple angles, not from the same one. In any case, the technology for "bubblewall at will and stop acceleration" already exists and has a name: bubblewall. We don't know how exactly a bubblewall is created, only that it's not a pair of node rings. It's likely to be created in much the same way that side, stern and bow walls are created, which are probably projectors. So I don't see any reason why a ship couldn't mount a bubblewall system, if it needs to.

If you're thinking of using the spider tractors as point defence instead of a shield, you have to say why you think they'd be better at point defence than PDLCs.

Dunno what I was thinking to suggest that missiles do the impossible. In the HV? N :o :o :o :!:

Standoff range!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:47 pm

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I may as well get on ThinksMarkedly's nerve again and suggest another MA breakthrough. "In for a penny, in for a pound." ...

I wonder if the Spiders will be able to communicate with one another during battle. Traditionally, they would go silent. What if the Spider drive also allows an undetectable form of communication. That would mean Spiders can truly maneuver as a coherent Wolfpack. Cutting angles of attack. Executing attack profiles that ensure at least one Spider will be in range to attack any given prey. The old Fox & Geese. Once a Fleet is in its web, even their superior accel can't get them out. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:36 pm

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cthia wrote:I may as well get on ThinksMarkedly's nerve again and suggest another MA breakthrough. "In for a penny, in for a pound." ...


The way I envision the spider being used defensively, after you loosely described what you're thinking, is to use them as a broom. Like using the capital missiles as Barricade, whereby the wedges collided with the SLN missiles during unpowered flight and thus eliminated them all. What the spider ship would do is de-focus its overpowered tractors, so they're still putting out a lot of energy, but instead of tearing a hole in the alpha wall with which to pull or push, it's sufficiently wide to cause gravity stresses on the incoming missiles and destroy them.

But I see a lot of problems with this.

First is that Barricade already had an impossible geometry. I really don't know how that worked. It really depended on the SLN being stupid and clustering their missiles together sufficiently for the opposing missiles' wedges to cover them. The RMN is not likely to be that stupid. Moreover, the SLN wouldn't be that stupid twice either: it's something that would only work once (provided that there were survivors to tell the tale, of course). But unlike an offensive tactic, using this as a defensive strategy does not cause the opposing side to die. Their follow-up salvos will not fall for the same trick.

Second, there's a problem with the geometry of the spider ship, though this is a minor problem. The way this may work is if all the tractors on one side are joined together to form a shovel. That means the ship only has one third of its tractors facing the incoming salvo. Maybe the ship can spin like a top around its longitudinal axis, so the three planes perpendicular to the ship's surface and to the direction of travel sweep continuously.

Third, the problem of geometry of the missiles. They are spreading in the volume of a cone as they come, so they may have multiple angles of attack. That's how they are able to attack turtled ships that have interposed their wedges. That means they are not all conveniently packed in any direction. The spider shovel I envisioned would be weakest at the edges. Plus, the missiles themselves still have time in their wedge clocks and can still change their velocity vectors by hundreds of km/s every second, so they can "dodge" the shovel by cutting acceleration or even reversing, if possible. All of this under Dazzlers' effect, so pinpointing where those warheads are is very difficult.

Fourth, until the missiles shed their wedge to deploy the focusing lens to fire, they are inside their wedge. The only thing that is capable of destroying a wedge is another, bigger wedge. For a spider tractor to be able to destroy a missile under those conditions, we'd have to have found something other than a wedge that can interfere with one. While no one else may have had the leap of using a tractor to move (what are you going to pull again, after all), overpowering tractors will have occurred to people. Just thing of in-system tugs that may be called upon to move a stricken 7-million-tonne freighter. So I think it's entirely likely for someone to have done experiments to see if a tractor could interfere with a wedge and destroy the emitters, meaning that if it were possible for tractors to be used offensively or defensively, we'd have seen. And especially since we have seen something along those lines, The Crippler: that may not have been the same thing, but it would have spurred a lot of "what if" questions to be investigated.

Fifth and possibly the nail in the coffin, range. Missiles fire from tens of thousands of km out and RFC was quite explicit that the spider is VERY short-ranged, shorter-ranged than the grav lance. We may speculate on what he's left unsaid, but going against what he explicitly said is not a recipe for success. Especially when he compared to the grav lance, which is a most definitely dead topic.

Even if you could extend the range, it's highly likely that doing so would compromise the stealth. Maybe at that point stealth is no longer a problem -- if you have missiles bearing down on you, it's probably already compromised. But if you use your propulsion system in a way other than propulsion, you're probably going ballistic and that makes the missiles' aim even easier. This is already a ship that doesn't have a wedge, so all its aspects are open to incoming fire. If it stops evading and lights up a big gravitational beacon "here I am," it has to guarantee 100% interception rate.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:33 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I may as well get on ThinksMarkedly's nerve again and suggest another MA breakthrough. "In for a penny, in for a pound." ...


The way I envision the spider being used defensively, after you loosely described what you're thinking, is to use them as a broom. Like using the capital missiles as Barricade, whereby the wedges collided with the SLN missiles during unpowered flight and thus eliminated them all. What the spider ship would do is de-focus its overpowered tractors, so they're still putting out a lot of energy, but instead of tearing a hole in the alpha wall with which to pull or push, it's sufficiently wide to cause gravity stresses on the incoming missiles and destroy them.

But I see a lot of problems with this.

First is that Barricade already had an impossible geometry. I really don't know how that worked. It really depended on the SLN being stupid and clustering their missiles together sufficiently for the opposing missiles' wedges to cover them. The RMN is not likely to be that stupid. Moreover, the SLN wouldn't be that stupid twice either: it's something that would only work once (provided that there were survivors to tell the tale, of course). But unlike an offensive tactic, using this as a defensive strategy does not cause the opposing side to die. Their follow-up salvos will not fall for the same trick.

Second, there's a problem with the geometry of the spider ship, though this is a minor problem. The way this may work is if all the tractors on one side are joined together to form a shovel. That means the ship only has one third of its tractors facing the incoming salvo. Maybe the ship can spin like a top around its longitudinal axis, so the three planes perpendicular to the ship's surface and to the direction of travel sweep continuously.

Third, the problem of geometry of the missiles. They are spreading in the volume of a cone as they come, so they may have multiple angles of attack. That's how they are able to attack turtled ships that have interposed their wedges. That means they are not all conveniently packed in any direction. The spider shovel I envisioned would be weakest at the edges. Plus, the missiles themselves still have time in their wedge clocks and can still change their velocity vectors by hundreds of km/s every second, so they can "dodge" the shovel by cutting acceleration or even reversing, if possible. All of this under Dazzlers' effect, so pinpointing where those warheads are is very difficult.

Fourth, until the missiles shed their wedge to deploy the focusing lens to fire, they are inside their wedge. The only thing that is capable of destroying a wedge is another, bigger wedge. For a spider tractor to be able to destroy a missile under those conditions, we'd have to have found something other than a wedge that can interfere with one. While no one else may have had the leap of using a tractor to move (what are you going to pull again, after all), overpowering tractors will have occurred to people. Just thing of in-system tugs that may be called upon to move a stricken 7-million-tonne freighter. So I think it's entirely likely for someone to have done experiments to see if a tractor could interfere with a wedge and destroy the emitters, meaning that if it were possible for tractors to be used offensively or defensively, we'd have seen. And especially since we have seen something along those lines, The Crippler: that may not have been the same thing, but it would have spurred a lot of "what if" questions to be investigated.

Fifth and possibly the nail in the coffin, range. Missiles fire from tens of thousands of km out and RFC was quite explicit that the spider is VERY short-ranged, shorter-ranged than the grav lance. We may speculate on what he's left unsaid, but going against what he explicitly said is not a recipe for success. Especially when he compared to the grav lance, which is a most definitely dead topic.

Even if you could extend the range, it's highly likely that doing so would compromise the stealth. Maybe at that point stealth is no longer a problem -- if you have missiles bearing down on you, it's probably already compromised. But if you use your propulsion system in a way other than propulsion, you're probably going ballistic and that makes the missiles' aim even easier. This is already a ship that doesn't have a wedge, so all its aspects are open to incoming fire. If it stops evading and lights up a big gravitational beacon "here I am," it has to guarantee 100% interception rate.

That's exactly what I was talking about!
See: Standoff range.

If the focused gravity can extend beyond the missile's moment to align itself the missiles will simply explode. It won't matter if the Spider isn't accelerating then, not a single missile is going to get through anyway. It might even be better that the Spider isn't accelerating, so when it dives and runs silent again, it has less accel to overcome before it can change its heading.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:12 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:If it stops evading and lights up a big gravitational beacon "here I am," it has to guarantee 100% interception rate.

No, it just has to be the best option they have. If it's stupid but it works...
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