Escort Carrier Modification

cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.

You're missing an important point. Planets that can only afford frigates usually don't have merchants of their own which they need to escort. Other polity's merchant visit them, not the other way around. Yes, there may be a short amount of time where your slowly building economy has only Frigates and has acquired merchants. But that would quickly change as the money flows in.

Also, Actual pirates are rare in most places in the Honorverse in 1900-1920. Places that can only afford frigates don't see enough merchant traffic - or the right merchant traffic - to attract pirates. Yes, there were the ex-peeps trying to eek a living out on the fringes (unsuccessfully), and the SLN playing their games - neither of which would have been intimidated by a frigate or 2 (or 10).

As I said before, most small polities that can only afford frigates are only interested in their local area - their system, the unoccupied systems near them, and their neighbors - at the most. They don't have a reason to go further. It would be like Peru routinely patrolling the Taiwanese Straight, English channel, or Bosporus - they have no business or need to do so. On the fLip, the English have a far flung merchant empire and do patrol such places - And bring the firepower to do so.

cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.

True - LACs can't escort freighters. (Ignoring weird emergency expedient measures like sticking one in a cargo hold or carrying it along docked to a freighter)

But anti-piracy escort is practically non-existent as a requirement in the Honorverse. Pirates can effectively only locate or attack shipping either within the hyper limit or slightly beyond it - so you only need escort for a dozen or two lightminutes out of a many lightyear trip. Bringing it with you isn't generally cost effective.

(The situation is a bit different in an active war where front-line systems might change hands, and a military can afford to 'waste' resources on a low probability attempts to intercept shipping in hyper. There a military escort for some shipping is reasonable - but it needs to be a lot more powerful than frigates)


So since piracy is only a problem around ports, a system that wants to get much trade needs to secure their area against pirates. If they don't (or can't) then the trade you're getting from that insecure system needs to be damned valuable in order to justify the cost of sending naval escorts along, or deploying your navy to patrol their space.

It seems that it'd be a darned rare combination, a place that profitable enough to justify sending your navy to protect the trade, but poor or dysfunctional enough they can't or won't acquire and deploy LACs to secure that same profitable trade. (And yes Silesia had been exactly that dysfunctional setup; but it's the exception not the rule)


If you're talking about a couple of relatively poor systems then one of them developing a pirate problem they can't control simply makes that trade economically unviable. It's cheaper for your freighters to trade elsewhere than it is for you to try to fix or mitigate the piracy problem from a distance. And if you're so poor that a handful of frigates are all you can afford, then you can't afford to be taking economic losses hunting pirates.




Now if you're a more wealthy nation then you might well see the anti-piracy work as worthwhile experience for your navy, even if the costs of dealing with them exceed the trade you'll recover from that system. But those wealthier systems would have real warships, DDs or CLs, to use.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:But LACs are as useless as your appendix when it comes to escort duty. LACs cannot accompany the freighters to the point of sale. A polity may opt for ships which are cheap, logical and appropriate for all of its logistics in the short term. The short term may be all an entity can afford before it begins to walk on two legs like an infant.

I disagree that the acquisition of Frigates will necessarily represent a solution in search of a problem.

You're missing an important point. Planets that can only afford frigates usually don't have merchants of their own which they need to escort. Other polity's merchant visit them, not the other way around. Yes, there may be a short amount of time where your slowly building economy has only Frigates and has acquired merchants. But that would quickly change as the money flows in.

Also, Actual pirates are rare in most places in the Honorverse in 1900-1920. Places that can only afford frigates don't see enough merchant traffic - or the right merchant traffic - to attract pirates. Yes, there were the ex-peeps trying to eek a living out on the fringes (unsuccessfully), and the SLN playing their games - neither of which would have been intimidated by a frigate or 2 (or 10).

As I said before, most small polities that can only afford frigates are only interested in their local area - their system, the unoccupied systems near them, and their neighbors - at the most. They don't have a reason to go further. It would be like Peru routinely patrolling the Taiwanese Straight, English channel, or Bosporus - they have no business or need to do so. On the fLip, the English have a far flung merchant empire and do patrol such places - And bring the firepower to do so.

A lot of the business as usual may have to change as the result of a humbled SL and the current dynamics which it left in the surrounding systems. The SL now needs all of its freighters for itself now that Manticore's freighters are no longer available to them. The League may no longer be able to adequately service itself let alone upstart backwater mom and pop operations which are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, now that they dare to venture out with ambitious operations that were previously impossible under the repressive regime. Many systems may have to build/acquire freighters of their own. And since other systems which have left the SL may also be without freighters as well, these young upstart polities may have to deliver the goods. Remember, everything is broken now. There are brand new opportunities that suddenly present themselves in this brave new frontier which is suddenly devoid of a greedy corrupt gorilla. But only for go getters. Success doesn't come to you. You've got to go get it.

Everyone will be jockeying for position. And the SL will love to see them all fail and come crawling back. But these poor systems have visions. They were only poor because of the SL. But now they have the motivation and a real chance to thrive, and they have a gameplan that will allow them to do just that, in time. But for now they have to crawl before they can walk. They cannot afford to build their own freighters, warships and DBs without pinching pennies until their fingers bleed.

And FFs will complement their entire logistics. They will double for system defense, escorts and DBs. Other systems without either will be more of a target.

Hmm,
Getting away from Topic here.

An isolated world that needs a local defense force for anti piracy patrols will be well served with a LAC force able to meet merchants at the hyper limit and escort them in and back out. Since engagements in Hyper space are so much harder the risk there is so low as to not matter. Maybe there are some common Navigation points that would need to be patrolled between systems but that is a secondary issue.

Silestia created a problem for Manicore where they could not rely on the locals to police their own systems which created the need for a long range escort, which in traditional French and RN terms would have been called a Sloop rather than a Frigate in modern usage.

The "Frigates" being described in the Honourverse seem to me to be closer to the late 19th Century and early 20th Centry colonial Sloops. Large Endurance vessels with a few large guns, marines etc. intended for independant operations away from first class opposition where they performed police and anti piracy duties.

The Torch Frigates seem to be a different type of vessel, almost a purpose built raider. Of course since these were initally designed for the Ballroom pre Torch that makes sense and politically nobody could admit they were building pirate vessels (Which the Ballroom ships would have been since they did not belong to a recognised goverment!).

Getting back on Topic, how much "space" does it take to piggyback a current LAC on a Warship to lift it between systems ? When the CLAC has withdrawn to Hyper because of a threat and the LAC's have retreated to a pre agreed RV can just the crews be recovered or can DD's and CL's perhaps grab them and lift them into Hyper to rejoin their parent vessels later? If in SVW a BC could tow 3 through Hyper (but presumably not a Grav wave) and ships have grown since and have much more powerful tractors (to support pods)could a BC(P) not tractor a couple to the outside and carry them from place to place. Sure doing an EV to transfer crew or service anything might be inconvinient but delivering a couple of LAC's to provide an in system escort and missile defence could be a good idea. Especially if a convoy needs to split to different points inside the hyperlimit.

The current FSV's provide all the CV(E)'s that the GSN and RMN need and more can be built.

What I am not sure of is how many LAC's in a Squadron? 8 or 12. The inital engagements at Hancock imply 8 but the UH engagement round the Prime Ajay Bridge imply 12, with the FSV providing 3 squadrons and a reduced squadron of 8 for 44 total.

Looking at the HOS totals I would say the GSN is really light on screening and scouting elements. The minor parties in the Manticore Alliance may well have provided these but in the Post UH world of the GA I would expect there to be some rebalancing. In rebuilding Blackbird I would expect that the first things to build would be such smaller warships - for sure new SD(P)'s will come out of the common Bolthole/ Beowolf production system.

So I can see the GSN in their own way coming up with a CL(P) where there are large area's of the Dorsal and Ventral surfaces kept clear for external pod racks or to piggy back a LAC or two. Perhaps with the same Hammerhead armament as a Roland but larger magazines and Drone storage. More FC of course and more tractors to handle the Pods. A CL with a 12 Mk16 salvo is respectable, add a pair of 14 mk16 pod load to a Salvo make the CL(P) generate a 40 round salvo which matches a Sag(C) CA. 20 internal rounds per launcher and 40 pods gives a respectable loadout. Since the Pods are on the hull inside the Sidewalls etc. they are not costing accelleration or vunerable to proximity kills like towed ones. I suspect the hull would be oval rather than cyclindical, fatter rather than higher to create more space inside the wedges and compensator zones.

Captain Golding wrote:Getting back on Topic, how much "space" does it take to piggyback a current LAC on a Warship to lift it between systems ? When the CLAC has withdrawn to Hyper because of a threat and the LAC's have retreated to a pre agreed RV can just the crews be recovered or can DD's and CL's perhaps grab them and lift them into Hyper to rejoin their parent vessels later? If in SVW a BC could tow 3 through Hyper (but presumably not a Grav wave) and ships have grown since and have much more powerful tractors (to support pods)could a BC(P) not tractor a couple to the outside and carry them from place to place. Sure doing an EV to transfer crew or service anything might be inconvinient but delivering a couple of LAC's to provide an in system escort and missile defence could be a good idea. Especially if a convoy needs to split to different points inside the hyperlimit.

For short term use, like retreating from a system, you don't even need to tractor the LAC to the ship; just have the LACs within a hundred km or so and the ship can jump them into hyper.
That's obviously no good if there's a grav wave involved; but most systems don't sit within one; and it's good enough to get the LACs into hyper for the short hop to the emergency backup rendezvous with their CLAC.

But if the CLAC was destroyed and you had to bring the LACs all the way home, that'd be harder unless you kept the acceleration way down. The issue with Saladin/Thunder of God towing the Masadan ones is that even a BC's compensator bubble isn't large enough to enclose a towed (or presumably docked) LAC so the LACs were exposed to the full force of its acceleration. Even with the crews removed and the LACs specially prepared that was hard on them.

OTOH if you're willing to hold your acceleration down to a g or so then the LAC is probably going to be fine -- it'll just take you a lot longer to work up to cruising speed. And if you keep the acceleration down you probably don't need to spear each LAC with multiple tractors to spread avoid overstressing the structure by tugging too hard on just one part of it.

The new BCs are a lot larger, and probably have more tractors thanks to being designed for pod combat. So they can probably tow more LACs, but I'd guess still less than 8 if fully zoned and maybe 3 times as many if only using 1 tractor per LAC. But I think all the LACs would still be outside the compensator bubble.

OTOH RMN/GSN LACs have plenty of power endurance and have tractors of their own; so assuming nothing breaks I don't see any reason way more than 8 LACs couldn't tractor themselves behind a ship, using their own power and tractors to do so. You'd need to hold the acceleration down to avoid damaging the tractor mount or squashing the crews that'd need to be aboard to run engineering; but that'd let you tow a bunch.


And finally, it's possible that if SD(P)s are along they might be able to extend their compensator field far enough to encompasses LACs tractored hard against their hull. That would let them run at full acceleration without any damage to the LACs; and effectively surface docked like that should be able to bring them through a grav wave as well. (Kind of like what the 2 Torch frigates did when sneaking into a slaver base system by docking to external cradles mounted on a freighter)

Now that this thread has died down, can someone give the details of how LACs are launched from CLACs? Storyline reports them as fleeing from CLACs like flies. But how? Can thrusters cause that scene? We know wedges can't fire up until they are some distance away. But thrusters don't seem to be powerful enough to supply that sort of instant acceleration.

cthia wrote:Now that this thread has died down, can someone give the details of how LACs are launched from CLACs? Storyline reports them as fleeing from CLACs like flies. But how? Can thrusters cause that scene? We know wedges can't fire up until they are some distance away. But thrusters don't seem to be powerful enough to supply that sort of instant acceleration.

I don't recall the books specifically saying how they're launched.
EOH does briefly mentions final docking; but I didn't see anything about launching. It says "Instead of the standard buffers and docking arms which held a small craft in its boat bay, the LACs' mooring tractors drew them bow-first into a full length docking cradle."

But I'd hypothesize that a presser emitter, either on the LAC or in the LAC bay provides the initial shove to get the LAC out of it's docking cradle and then somewhat clear of the ship.

Once it's past the safety perimeter of its thrusters though I don't see why its thrusters wouldn't quickly get it out to the wedge safety perimeter.



We know LACs have powerful thrusters to control attack heading after their bow or stern wall is raised. And we know that the Honorverse has thrusters capable of accelerating 900,000ish ton BCs at 150 gees!!! I don't see any reason a 21,000 ton LAC couldn't use its thrusters to accelerate clear at, say, 50 gees (slow enough its grav plates can fully absorb the acceleration) It wouldn't have the fuel to do so for all that long; but it doesn't need to.

Yes, for a Honorverse ships 50 gees is pretty slow - but you probable need less than 1000 km separation from the CLAC before you can transition to wedge; and from a standing start 50g will get you there barely over a minute (64 seconds).

But the LAC doesn't need to generate all of that separation on its own. The CLAC would be accelerating too; and even with their original compensators they can comfortable accelerate at over 380 gees; so, ignoring anything the LAC could do, the CLAC would have left it 1000 km behind in just 24 seconds. So LACs mostly need to use their acceleration to gain separation from each other; rather than from the CLAC. And LACs have far smaller wedges than full up starships, so they don't need to be as far from each other before they can start raising wedges -- maybe as little as 2-300 km apart.
(And by slightly staggering their launches from the CLAC, the CLAC's own acceleration can give them a big head start on that mutual separation)



However, that's all my speculation/assumption. If someone can think of a spot where the books covered this, or something RFC posted about it, I'd love to see that and see how my thoughts align with what he said.

cthia wrote:Now that this thread has died down, can someone give the details of how LACs are launched from CLACs? Storyline reports them as fleeing from CLACs like flies. But how? Can thrusters cause that scene? We know wedges can't fire up until they are some distance away. But thrusters don't seem to be powerful enough to supply that sort of instant acceleration.

I don't remember any text showing the procedure, but it's probably a lot like the docking and undocking of shuttles with the LAC getting close under thrusters for the final approach and tractors doing the actual docking.

Launching would be the opposite. The mother ship pushes the LAC hard enough to get it clear of the hull, reaction thrusters are used to clear the wedge and the the main engines are brought online just likd a shuttle or penance.

Thanks guys.

Jonathan, some sort of presser beam is the only explanation I could come up with. But I wanted to make sure, because when imagining the entire process removed from "on paper," it poses some interesting questions, not at all unlike the questions which arose when microscopically peering at the process of launching escape pods through shoals of debris.

For example, it must be a single presser beam or the entire operation would require a very large infrastructure simply to support a presser beam per LAC. And if it is indeed one presser beam then each LAC has to somehow be moved into position before launch. Does that imply some sort of rotary system? Similar to the same discussion about pods rotating before filling and launching? And, at what rate are they fired?

So, the ship's speed simply has to play a part in creating that separation, but I don't think the system can wholly rely upon that. Remember, your CLAC may have an initial low accel during launch because CLACs are held back for protection. But, if caught off guard they should be able to launch even while at rest.

Also, are CLACs similar enough to regular warships to launch LACs double broadside? Or is it a totally different design with huge LAC bays?

At any rate, nice posts!

cthia wrote:Thanks guys.

Jonathan, some sort of presser beam is the only explanation I could come up with. But I wanted to make sure, because when imagining the entire process removed from "on paper," it poses some interesting questions, not at all unlike the questions which arose when microscopically peering at the process of launching escape pods through shoals of debris.

For example, it must be a single presser beam or the entire operation would require a very large infrastructure simply to support a presser beam per LAC. And if it is indeed one presser beam then each LAC has to somehow be moved into position before launch. Does that imply some sort of rotary system? Similar to the same discussion about pods rotating before filling and launching? And, at what rate are they fired?

So, the ship's speed simply has to play a part in creating that separation, but I don't think the system can wholly rely upon that. Remember, your CLAC may have an initial low accel during launch because CLACs are held back for protection. But, if caught off guard they should be able to launch even while at rest.

Also, are CLACs similar enough to regular warships to launch LACs double broadside? Or is it a totally different design with huge LAC bays?

At any rate, nice posts!

Well the CLAC's acceleration can be beneficial to generating separation; their speed alone wouldn't be. There's (effectively) no friction in space, so if you launch a LAC out of a CLAC that's not accelerating it'll just coast right along with it; doesn't much matter if the CLAC is at standstill relative to the system or moving through it at 0.25c -- the LAC shares its velocity right up until the point of separation. Only acceleration after that point would generate separation.
(That's slightly unintuitive; as we're used to things on earth where air resistance rapidly robs them of their initial velocity, causing them to quickly fall behind a vehicle moving at constant velocity).

Still, the ship's acceleration can help achieve the separation a bit sooner. But, like I showed, the LAC alone should be able to separate from a stationary (or at least, non-accelerating) CLAC in barely more than a minute.

I'm envisioning a launch using 3 different propulsion mode sequentially in a minute or so (or less than half that if the CLAC also accelerates after separation).
1. A presser shoves the LAC backwards out of its bay to a couple hundred meters; far enough for thrusters to safely be used (The LAC can flip end for end as it's covering this distance).
2. The LAC then uses its thrusters to accelerate out to 1000 km or so; far enough for its wedge to be safely used.
3. Finally bring up its wedge, allowing it to accelerate away at over 600 gees.



We can see from the diagram of HMS Minotaur and her LAC bays, in the back of EoH that the CLAC has a two rows of LAC bays running down each broadside, and each bay is only slightly larger than a single LAC. 25 bays in each row; so 50 bays per broadside, and 100 bays total. Each of her 100 LACs docks and launches from its own bay, on the CLAC's broadside. Pull in forward to dock, back out stern first to launch.

Each bay and/or LAC would need its own launch hardware as there's no way to move them between bays [1] and there's no common hanger beyond the LAC bay. This isn't Battlestar Galactica's Viper hangers and launch tubes; it's more like the CLAC's broadsides is dotted with 100 separate little 1 LAC garages; each complete with garage door to close behind the LAC after it pulls in.


Fortunately pressers seem to be no larger than tractors; and we know a LAC carries several tractors. Heck, it's possible that presser is simple an alternate mode of the same tractor emitter.
So, I'm not sure if each bay has pressers to launch the docked LAC or if each LAC mounts its own pressers (and thus shoves itself backwards out of its bay). Still, the hardware doesn't appear to be large enough to cause any issues with having 100 sets to launch 100 LACs; especially since the presser beams don't need to move the LAC far; just enough to let the LAC switch to thrusters.

I can't see any reason a CLAC couldn't launch LACs simultaneously from both broadsides. Though it probably doesn't want to launch all 100 at the exact same instant; that'd complicate the LAC's job of achieving sufficient mutual separation to light off their wedges. Spacing launches out a little is time and distance would actually lower to total time between first launch and final LAC engaging its wedge.


[1] Short of launching the LAC into space and having to return to a different bay