Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Dauntless wrote:While I know of nothing that says missiles can't be blindfired generally speaking the RMN don't fire missiles unless they have a target.

so if the RMN is firing a missile at a LD (no matter the range) then , in theory, they have found something to lock on to, be that emissions/heat from the reactor, light bouncing of something it shouldn't or something to do with the spider drive.

now it could be the range will be lower i.e. 20 million k instead of the 60+ that they can do against more traditional ships but if a ship is confident enough of a target to fire at it, then then the LDs cover is blown and it is just a matter of time before it is destroyed.

True, missiles certainly can be blind fired, but they also don't grow on trees. Especially when you are dependant on colliers that may be destroyed, and certainly when going up against an utterly stealthed opponent. Ask the SLN about aimlessly chucking missiles like you can shit them out.

Now, I agree that the RMN isn't in a habit of shooting without localizing first. But then, it has never faced this problem before. The RMN has always led the Galaxy in stealth, so it never had a lot of experience fighting a more stealthy foe. There is one time the RMN paid dearly for failing to detect the enemy, when a pissant Masadan ship lay in wait and killed Admiral Courvosier.

At any rate, if you are taking tremendous losses you might need to hurry and "Take a stab at it! ... For Tester's sake! Shoot at something!" It is either a cool calm and collective Captain who can maintain his composure in the face of taking huge losses, who can hold his fire until firing solutions. Or it is a Captain who is frozen helpless by his fear. I agree that that sort of composure happens now when two forces are closing on each other waiting for the range to tick down. But that is a different ball of wax.

So, certainly if operating in MA space where they are totally dependant upon Colliers, they won't be able to afford to blindly fire. Colliers may be among the ship's taken out first, and fast.

However, even if the theater of battle is in the MBS, blindly firing isn't going to cut the mustard. Although we both know that some less capable COs are going to break.

Another problem the GA has. The LDs can operate behind enemy lines. It may be unsafe to fire at an LD when it is deeply embedded in a target rich environment like the inner system. If you miss you could end up destroying one of your own ships.

cthia wrote:Another problem the GA has. The LDs can operate behind enemy lines. It may be unsafe to fire at an LD when it is deeply embedded in a target rich environment like the inner system. If you miss you could end up destroying one of your own ships.

Why would someone be shooting at the direction that closer ships are? Those closer ships should be shooting in the first place. Worst case scenario is that those don't have Mk23 MDMs but only Mk16 DDMs. Plus, the telemetry link should be handed off to the closer ships, which are blasting IFF anyway.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Another problem the GA has. The LDs can operate behind enemy lines. It may be unsafe to fire at an LD when it is deeply embedded in a target rich environment like the inner system. If you miss you could end up destroying one of your own ships.

Why would someone be shooting at the direction that closer ships are? Those closer ships should be shooting in the first place. Worst case scenario is that those don't have Mk23 MDMs but only Mk16 DDMs. Plus, the telemetry link should be handed off to the closer ships, which are blasting IFF anyway.

Worst case the defender has the planet as the backstop for their relativistic missiles. ‘Look, I got strong gravity field ahead, that must be the target!’

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Another problem the GA has. The LDs can operate behind enemy lines. It may be unsafe to fire at an LD when it is deeply embedded in a target rich environment like the inner system. If you miss you could end up destroying one of your own ships.

Why would someone be shooting at the direction that closer ships are? Those closer ships should be shooting in the first place. Worst case scenario is that those don't have Mk23 MDMs but only Mk16 DDMs. Plus, the telemetry link should be handed off to the closer ships, which are blasting IFF anyway.

What if the LD is in the middle of the fray trying to keep the range open between itself and all hostiles. What is preventing blindly fired missiles from acquiring friendlies? Especially a friendly or two who has decided to shut down all emissions and go into stealth itself. The missiles may not be able to detect the LD, but they will certainly detect GA ships which have gone into stealth.

"Oh there you are!"

Jonathan_S wrote:

Dauntless wrote:While I know of nothing that says missiles can't be blindfired generally speaking the RMN don't fire missiles unless they have a target.

Though wasn't one exception when someone (I think maybe Michelle) used a single Apollo pod as an impromptu rapid reaction recon drone?
The pod got fired on suspicion in order to sweep its sensors through a given bit of space far more quickly than an Ghost Rider drone could get over there.

Yes that was Michelle Henke as you said, though I think it was just a Sim

still it is a interesting idea, not stealthy (unless you've let the missile go ballistic) but certainly a clever twist.

Dauntless wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Though wasn't one exception when someone (I think maybe Michelle) used a single Apollo pod as an impromptu rapid reaction recon drone?
The pod got fired on suspicion in order to sweep its sensors through a given bit of space far more quickly than an Ghost Rider drone could get over there.

Yes that was Michelle Henke as you said, though I think it was just a Sim

still it is a interesting idea, not stealthy (unless you've let the missile go ballistic) but certainly a clever twist.

Thanks, and now that you that I think you might be right, and it might have been a sim.

Definitely not stealthy. Even if the missiles go ballistic they'd have to do so ages before reaching the location of interest to avoid someone there observing their pre-ballistic flight phase. And if fact, given the communication range of Apollo (< 8 LM) I'm pretty sure anything you could recon with them would be close enough to see their "boost phase". [At Beowulf the SLN BCs saw Apollo launches at 200 million km; about 50% further than Apollo FTL can reach without relays]


But if you get an itch about someone sneaking up on you from an angle your Ghost Riders aren't currently covering sometimes information fast is better than being sneaky - and the ACM can definitely get there sooner than a Ghost Rider drone.

If the drone isn't being stealthy it can pull 10,000 gees, but the ACM can pull almost 5 times that. (Well 10 times that at very short ranges, but terminal velocity is better at the lower accel; and if you think someone's snuck to within 15-20 million km you're pretty screwed anyway). It's still got far inferior sensors, and far inferior endurance. Oh, and pretty sure it's got inferior communication range too - I think the GR drones can send FTL from beyond 8 LM (you can fit a bigger more sensitive transceiver into a drone body compared to a large missile). And an ACM can't shadow a target the way a Ghost Rider can. But when you just need one data point quick...
It was a slick expedient.

cthia wrote:What if the LD is in the middle of the fray trying to keep the range open between itself and all hostiles. What is preventing blindly fired missiles from acquiring friendlies? Especially a friendly or two who has decided to shut down all emissions and go into stealth itself. The missiles may not be able to detect the LD, but they will certainly detect GA ships which have gone into stealth.

"Oh there you are!"

Either it's in the middle of the fray or it's keeping the range open. It can't be both. If it's the latter, then there are no friendly to lock on to. Even if the missiles pass close by other formations before the target, they will have been programmed to know of that fact before launch. The missile control suite won't engage until it's in the zone where the enemy is expected to be.

But again, in either scenario, there are closer units to fire. So I don't see the point of further out units firing blindly into the melée. If they were to contribute missiles, they'd be coordinating with the closer units and via FTL comms, so the closer units will know of the missiles incoming and will have a hand-off protocol (read: firing wouldn't be blind).

Is it possible construct a contrived scenario in which a friendly could be targeted? Sure! Your idea of a stealth friendly tracking the hostile, unknown to the other friendly forces, unable to break EMCON to warn the others, but with sufficiently close signature that the missiles could target them. I still think they'd take over the missiles, even if it meant breaking EMCON at the last possible moment. Blowing up breaks EMCON, after all.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:What if the LD is in the middle of the fray trying to keep the range open between itself and all hostiles. What is preventing blindly fired missiles from acquiring friendlies? Especially a friendly or two who has decided to shut down all emissions and go into stealth itself. The missiles may not be able to detect the LD, but they will certainly detect GA ships which have gone into stealth.

"Oh there you are!"

Either it's in the middle of the fray or it's keeping the range open. It can't be both. If it's the latter, then there are no friendly to lock on to. Even if the missiles pass close by other formations before the target, they will have been programmed to know of that fact before launch. The missile control suite won't engage until it's in the zone where the enemy is expected to be.

But again, in either scenario, there are closer units to fire. So I don't see the point of further out units firing blindly into the melée. If they were to contribute missiles, they'd be coordinating with the closer units and via FTL comms, so the closer units will know of the missiles incoming and will have a hand-off protocol (read: firing wouldn't be blind).

Is it possible construct a contrived scenario in which a friendly could be targeted? Sure! Your idea of a stealth friendly tracking the hostile, unknown to the other friendly forces, unable to break EMCON to warn the others, but with sufficiently close signature that the missiles could target them. I still think they'd take over the missiles, even if it meant breaking EMCON at the last possible moment. Blowing up breaks EMCON, after all.

Au contraire mon frère, it can do both. It no longer has to keep the range open against targets which have now been destroyed.

Plus, a Wolfpack of LDs, and their toys, are going to wreak havoc on the GA's ability to determine where, when, and how many, against a foe they cannot see, sense, and have no idea about their maximum acceleration. And that it is so low.

In the MBS, the Darius system, and other major systems that the LDs may infest, the GA will be operating against a pack of LDs. And their toys.

And about this handing off capability, it is going to be a disaster if the LDs have learned how to control GA missiles.

"They stole the fucking handoff!"

cthia wrote:
And about this handing off capability, it is going to be a disaster if the LDs have learned how to control GA missiles.

"They stole the fucking handoff!"

I suspect, in addition to all the crypto that must be protecting the communication, that missiles only 'listen' for control links from their rear hemisphere (if not an even narrower cone).

Even if you weren't worried about a target hijacking your missiles not exposing receivers to the forward arc should make them less susceptible to control link jamming coming from the direction of their target.


That wouldn't completely protect missiles from getting hijacked by someone who'd somehow stolen the control crypto settings and keys - but it'd require the enemy have some platform or ship that can be behind the missiles before attempting the takeover.



And stealing the crypto keys should be exceptionally difficult because there's no need for them to be persistent - a ship could create a new random key for every missile, or at least every salvo, just before it's launched/its pods are rolled. That would mean that the key you need to control a given missile is likely only in existence for under 20 minutes before it's useless (because everything it controls went *boom*). So you'd need to steal it from the ship, or from the squadron's datalink (assuming control sharing), and get it to the target before the missiles got there .
[Now missile pods deployed for system defense stick around a lot longer after getting rolled, and a number of forts or fixed defenses need to be able to control them; so those keys would have to last longer and be shared more widely]

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
And about this handing off capability, it is going to be a disaster if the LDs have learned how to control GA missiles.

"They stole the fucking handoff!"

I suspect, in addition to all the crypto that must be protecting the communication, that missiles only 'listen' for control links from their rear hemisphere (if not an even narrower cone).

Even if you weren't worried about a target hijacking your missiles not exposing receivers to the forward arc should make them less susceptible to control link jamming coming from the direction of their target.


That wouldn't completely protect missiles from getting hijacked by someone who'd somehow stolen the control crypto settings and keys - but it'd require the enemy have some platform or ship that can be behind the missiles before attempting the takeover.



And stealing the crypto keys should be exceptionally difficult because there's no need for them to be persistent - a ship could create a new random key for every missile, or at least every salvo, just before it's launched/its pods are rolled. That would mean that the key you need to control a given missile is likely only in existence for under 20 minutes before it's useless (because everything it controls went *boom*). So you'd need to steal it from the ship, or from the squadron's datalink (assuming control sharing), and get it to the target before the missiles got there .
[Now missile pods deployed for system defense stick around a lot longer after getting rolled, and a number of forts or fixed defenses need to be able to control them; so those keys would have to last longer and be shared more widely]

I see what you mean, and I am certainly willing to believe that all navies use some sort of encryption. It would be insane not to. And if the keys are stolen, most likely they will only work for one salvo. Perhaps several salvos, if you count the salvos from other ships before the leak is plugged.

But if they are massive launches, the missiles and the surprise may destroy a lot of the GA's forces. Plus it could make the remaining ships afraid to launch.