Wormhole Assault: MA Style

cthia wrote:I dunno. It may depend on how deceptive the ruse. I was thinking more like in peacetime. And maybe a ship of Grayson design squawking Grayson codes. Maybe claiming to have the Protector or a Key or Keys aboard. There would at least be hesitation before firing on the Protector, or a Key. And we know that even warships are allowed within the hyperlimit of allies. Do recall that the incident between Byng and the helpless destroyers was instigated while both were in orbit.

At any rate, I expect queries to be taken. But, in time of peace where there are tons of metal arriving and leaving hourly in the busy MBS, is anything else routinely performed as a matter of course, like boarding? That policy would quickly back everything up during the busy traffic of peacetime.

For a close ally like that, the RMN would know the exact drive signature of each GSN vessel as well as all the vessels that were under construction. They'd even be informed where such ships would generally be deployed, with some exceptions (like the Protector's Own doing exercises), but would at least know they've mostly been deployed. And for such a close ally, the encrypted handshakes will also happen, which means faking such a ship is unlikely to work. It's actually likely to bring the system to alert.

The attacker would need to have captured a GSN ship mostly intact and use it before it was declared overdue.

Again, this applies to warships. Freighters are a different story but those are usually not that harmful or fast for that matter.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I dunno. It may depend on how deceptive the ruse. I was thinking more like in peacetime. And maybe a ship of Grayson design squawking Grayson codes. Maybe claiming to have the Protector or a Key or Keys aboard. There would at least be hesitation before firing on the Protector, or a Key. And we know that even warships are allowed within the hyperlimit of allies. Do recall that the incident between Byng and the helpless destroyers was instigated while both were in orbit.

At any rate, I expect queries to be taken. But, in time of peace where there are tons of metal arriving and leaving hourly in the busy MBS, is anything else routinely performed as a matter of course, like boarding? That policy would quickly back everything up during the busy traffic of peacetime.

For a close ally like that, the RMN would know the exact drive signature of each GSN vessel as well as all the vessels that were under construction. They'd even be informed where such ships would generally be deployed, with some exceptions (like the Protector's Own doing exercises), but would at least know they've mostly been deployed. And for such a close ally, the encrypted handshakes will also happen, which means faking such a ship is unlikely to work. It's actually likely to bring the system to alert.

The attacker would need to have captured a GSN ship mostly intact and use it before it was declared overdue.

Again, this applies to warships. Freighters are a different story but those are usually not that harmful or fast for that matter.

True, but they can't know all of the situations which may be responsible for putting a Protector or Key(s) aboard any particular ship. Be it their own design or no. So they can't get trigger happy. Although I agree that they wouldn't want to alert the enemy that something is fishy.

But if a Grayson ship is taken without firing a shot, it could be used as part of the ruse. It could take time for Grayson to learn of the disaster.

Hmm, I wonder if ships taken as a prize could be used to transit the junction? All codes and everything should be intact.

Chaff - formerly known as "Windowing"

I was watching a documentary on war and it was amusing to find out about chaff in its early form. Developed in Berlin by the Nazi, a large mass of aluminum strips were dropped to confound enemyradar. Later the technique was deployed against them by the RAF. Tit for tat. Of course, now there is Chaff and all modern forms of ECM.

Windowing became ineffective when Doppler radar was used to measure its speed. Windowing quickly lost speed when released which made it impossible to simulate aircraft. So, to augment this Windowing the target aircraft would illuminate the chaff with the proper frequency to foil (pardon the pun) Doppler radar.

I wonder if the MA can adopt something similar for its BCs or LDs to drop to appear like ships. Evenso, the mass of (probably metal or specially designed materials would have to be used), I don't think it would work because HV sensors are very effective discerning wreckage and even pods from anything else. It does seem like large masses of projectiles launched ballistically at an enemy would appear like a ship. If outfitted with mini thrusters (LOL) allowing a single burn to change direction of the mass as if it was maneuvering it might distract the enemy. It is all so very interesting.

cthia wrote:But if a Grayson ship is taken without firing a shot, it could be used as part of the ruse. It could take time for Grayson to learn of the disaster.

Hmm, I wonder if ships taken as a prize could be used to transit the junction? All codes and everything should be intact.

They should not be likely - it is generally standard procedure to purge every computer and slag sensitive equipment when surrendering. There's always a gap between the moment a prize is surrendered and the moment the attackers actually put boots aboard to take control.

Very difficult to get around that. A commander who realises their attacker has plans for their ship against their star nation(or allies) could take the subtle step of deleting the most recent code package or trying to bury some kind of time-delayed/response-activated Code Seventeen-Alpha signal.

Making threats/bluffs as Honor Harrington did could work but if the surrenderers think they're going to be mistreated anyway, it is only weak deterrence. Worse, they may let the boarders get close and then blow their own ship up.

In Crown of Slaves, they do get special forces to jump the void in spacesuits in order to board a slaver ship. It doesn't seem like any of the circumstances which enabled that to work would apply to a lone GSN cruiser which has been scheduled to transit a wormhole and had to be captured and fully inspected without incurring a significant delay, which gives the game away by the time it arrives at the wormhole.

If it hasn't been scheduled to transit, then it's in the position of asking for an unscheduled emergency transit. Lots of surprise, questions and scrutiny.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
For a close ally like that, the RMN would know the exact drive signature of each GSN vessel as well as all the vessels that were under construction. They'd even be informed where such ships would generally be deployed, with some exceptions (like the Protector's Own doing exercises), but would at least know they've mostly been deployed. And for such a close ally, the encrypted handshakes will also happen, which means faking such a ship is unlikely to work. It's actually likely to bring the system to alert.

The attacker would need to have captured a GSN ship mostly intact and use it before it was declared overdue.

Again, this applies to warships. Freighters are a different story but those are usually not that harmful or fast for that matter.

True, but they can't know all of the situations which may be responsible for putting a Protector or Key(s) aboard any particular ship. Be it their own design or no. So they can't get trigger happy. Although I agree that they wouldn't want to alert the enemy that something is fishy.

But if a Grayson ship is taken without firing a shot, it could be used as part of the ruse. It could take time for Grayson to learn of the disaster.

Hmm, I wonder if ships taken as a prize could be used to transit the junction? All codes and everything should be intact.

Actually, the Keys rarely travel offworld, and "never" leave Yeltsin. When Steadholder Owen visted Manticore for his daughter's graduation, it was the first time a Grayson born Steadholder had left the Yeltsin System (other than the Protector and Protector's lineage). If it was the Protector, a state visit would be arranged months in advance, and he would be on his official Yacht, with a heavy SD (or maybe BC(p)) escort.

The only Caveate to that was Benjamin's younger brother, who was the main diplomatic conduit between Manticore and Grayson. But he died in the Beowulf bombings.

So having a Key or someone claiming to be the Protector show up in a random ship would arouse even more alarms than a normal GSN ship with a faulty transponder.

Theemile wrote:So having a Key or someone claiming to be the Protector show up in a random ship would arouse even more alarms than a normal GSN ship with a faulty transponder.

It's possible any of them can show up unannounced or with little ahead notice. Benjamin himself did for the five-way conferences after Eloise dropped by unannounced herself.

But I'm pretty sure any Key would qualify for a GSN escort, even if not to the same level as the Protector himself. They are, after all, heads of state of their own steadings. So the difficulty is now much bigger, with the need to fake multiple GSN ships of BC size. And since this is, after all, a foreign head of state visiting, the RMN would scramble to provide an inner-system escort, if nothing else to provide due honours.

It's difficult enough with a single warship: it needs to be captured mostly intact, with its existing IFF systems without wiping, and used before it's declared overdue. It's going to be impossible with multiple ships.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:So having a Key or someone claiming to be the Protector show up in a random ship would arouse even more alarms than a normal GSN ship with a faulty transponder.

It's possible any of them can show up unannounced or with little ahead notice. Benjamin himself did for the five-way conferences after Eloise dropped by unannounced herself.

But I'm pretty sure any Key would qualify for a GSN escort, even if not to the same level as the Protector himself. They are, after all, heads of state of their own steadings. So the difficulty is now much bigger, with the need to fake multiple GSN ships of BC size. And since this is, after all, a foreign head of state visiting, the RMN would scramble to provide an inner-system escort, if nothing else to provide due honours.

It's difficult enough with a single warship: it needs to be captured mostly intact, with its existing IFF systems without wiping, and used before it's declared overdue. It's going to be impossible with multiple ships.

The important point is no one is going to ignore a ship claiming to be a Key or the Protector or "just wave it through". Calls are going to be made, people are going to be woken up, ships are going to move; if nothing else, traffic control operators will be paying extra attention to make sure nothing in RMN space hurts said ship. And as I said, the Keys don't leave Yeltsin, so one would imagine any such visit would at the very least, be able to verify it's existence with secure, diplomatic credentials - Not just the word of a random ship's captain.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:So having a Key or someone claiming to be the Protector show up in a random ship would arouse even more alarms than a normal GSN ship with a faulty transponder.

It's possible any of them can show up unannounced or with little ahead notice. Benjamin himself did for the five-way conferences after Eloise dropped by unannounced herself.

But I'm pretty sure any Key would qualify for a GSN escort, even if not to the same level as the Protector himself. They are, after all, heads of state of their own steadings. So the difficulty is now much bigger, with the need to fake multiple GSN ships of BC size. And since this is, after all, a foreign head of state visiting, the RMN would scramble to provide an inner-system escort, if nothing else to provide due honours.

It's difficult enough with a single warship: it needs to be captured mostly intact, with its existing IFF systems without wiping, and used before it's declared overdue. It's going to be impossible with multiple ships.

Theemile wrote:The important point is no one is going to ignore a ship claiming to be a Key or the Protector or "just wave it through". Calls are going to be made, people are going to be woken up, ships are going to move; if nothing else, traffic control operators will be paying extra attention to make sure nothing in RMN space hurts said ship. And as I said, the Keys don't leave Yeltsin, so one would imagine any such visit would at the very least, be able to verify it's existence with secure, diplomatic credentials - Not just the word of a random ship's captain.

If anyone actually attempted the ruse, they may not want to be ignored. We would need to consider the possible objectives. And, if you factor in the implications of your own words you may find an answer.

First, nobody is going to just wake up one Sunday morning and say... "Let's carry off a ruse." It is meticulously planned. And something as obvious as access codes is going to be discussed first.

This kind of ruse may get an enemy ship and escorts through the junction. The fact that a Key (allegedly) is part of the ruse might just be crazier enough to work even better. As you say, the Keys never leave the planet. So if a Key, allegedly, shows up claiming an emergency, he is going to get top priority. And I agree with you, he is going to get escorted all the way to his possible objective. Orbit around the planet. For what nefarious purpose or means to an end, who knows. If it is a Key, that would also explain his accompanying ships, ships which might enjoy a pleasant escort as well. IOW, an enemy ship gets protection from his enemy. In the form of escorts belonging to the enemy.

But don't miss the point. An enemy ship may make it past the maelstrom of firepower at the junction, or the immense range of MDMs, and actually be escorted into orbit?

Cool, says the Trojan Alphas.

Theemile wrote:The important point is no one is going to ignore a ship claiming to be a Key or the Protector or "just wave it through". Calls are going to be made, people are going to be woken up, ships are going to move; if nothing else, traffic control operators will be paying extra attention to make sure nothing in RMN space hurts said ship. And as I said, the Keys don't leave Yeltsin, so one would imagine any such visit would at the very least, be able to verify it's existence with secure, diplomatic credentials - Not just the word of a random ship's captain.

Not to mention that the ambassador in Landing is going to be woken up in the middle of the night to talk to whoever the Key is. So this ruse must also convince the ambassador that he's talking to the real McCoy. And lest you think they can delay just enough, remember the Hermes buoys, which will allow a mere 10-second delay to the hyperlimit, so this conversation will last hours.

The Foreign Office will also be in the call, with all the lower-level functionaries speaking to their counterparts aboard the ship. The ruse needs to pull off a very good impression of a Grayson to fool all those too, for hours.

cthia wrote:If anyone actually attempted the ruse, they may not want to be ignored. We would need to consider the possible objectives. And, if you factor in the implications of your own words you may find an answer.

First, nobody is going to just wake up one Sunday morning and say... "Let's carry off a ruse." It is meticulously planned. And something as obvious as access codes is going to be discussed first.

Agreed. But there are codes and there are codes. One set are encryption codes and IFF, which must be valid and current. The other are the behaviour of the crew: a BC has hundreds of people inside and they may know people in Manticore or there may be people in Manticore that know them, including other ships from their home navies. Remember this was how Major General (SS) Seth Chernock noticed something was wrong in the Cerberus system: when his counterpart failed to send a chess move by mail. The Foreign Office probably keeps a good file on each Steadholder and knows what each one's likes and personalities are, and I dare say they do know that better than the MAlign would. If not them, then the Ambassador would know. A ruse is not stealth, it's hiding in plain sight: with the spotlight on them, it may not be feasible.

Note also the synergistic effect of the two codes: the attacker is not be able to choose which ship to capture. It's a matter of what they managed to get, when they got it. So they don't have control over what personnel was supposed to be aboard.

This kind of ruse may get an enemy ship and escorts through the junction. The fact that a Key (allegedly) is part of the ruse might just be crazier enough to work even better. As you say, the Keys never leave the planet. So if a Key, allegedly, shows up claiming an emergency, he is going to get top priority. And I agree with you, he is going to get escorted all the way to his possible objective. Orbit around the planet. For what nefarious purpose or means to an end, who knows. If it is a Key, that would also explain his accompanying ships, ships which might enjoy a pleasant escort as well. IOW, an enemy ship gets protection from his enemy. In the form of escorts belonging to the enemy.

But don't miss the point. An enemy ship may make it past the maelstrom of firepower at the junction, or the immense range of MDMs, and actually be escorted into orbit?

Cool, says the Trojan Alphas.

Through the Junction I could see, but not to Manticore orbit. Arriving at the Junction with a captured allied vessel will get them priority, so they will transit in less than an hour from arrival. But again, what does that give them?

Theemile wrote:The important point is no one is going to ignore a ship claiming to be a Key or the Protector or "just wave it through". Calls are going to be made, people are going to be woken up, ships are going to move; if nothing else, traffic control operators will be paying extra attention to make sure nothing in RMN space hurts said ship. And as I said, the Keys don't leave Yeltsin, so one would imagine any such visit would at the very least, be able to verify it's existence with secure, diplomatic credentials - Not just the word of a random ship's captain.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not to mention that the ambassador in Landing is going to be woken up in the middle of the night to talk to whoever the Key is. So this ruse must also convince the ambassador that he's talking to the real McCoy. And lest you think they can delay just enough, remember the Hermes buoys, which will allow a mere 10-second delay to the hyperlimit, so this conversation will last hours.

The Foreign Office will also be in the call, with all the lower-level functionaries speaking to their counterparts aboard the ship. The ruse needs to pull off a very good impression of a Grayson to fool all those too, for hours.

There's no need for them to get so testy. This ruse is carried out in peacetime. I would imagine the only person in the system who is adequately familiar with ALL of the Keys is Honor. Beth and the Ambassador have probably met the Keys, but the chances the relationship is familiar enough to ask personal questions which are not found in a file - a file which even the MA has access to - is probably nil. And Alphas would undoubtedly have studied personal information and mannerisms of the Key in question. And of course, biosculpt will handle the appearance. At any rate, this would be a highly sensitive meeting the Key would be requesting, and, proper political procedure would have to be observed. He could refuse to leave his ship because of sensitive information. Honor would be the best choice for personal authentication.

cthia wrote:If anyone actually attempted the ruse, they may not want to be ignored. We would need to consider the possible objectives. And, if you factor in the implications of your own words you may find an answer.

First, nobody is going to just wake up one Sunday morning and say... "Let's carry off a ruse." It is meticulously planned. And something as obvious as access codes is going to be discussed first.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Agreed. But there are codes and there are codes. One set are encryption codes and IFF, which must be valid and current. The other are the behaviour of the crew: a BC has hundreds of people inside and they may know people in Manticore or there may be people in Manticore that know them, including other ships from their home navies. Remember this was how Major General (SS) Seth Chernock noticed something was wrong in the Cerberus system: when his counterpart failed to send a chess move by mail. The Foreign Office probably keeps a good file on each Steadholder and knows what each one's likes and personalities are, and I dare say they do know that better than the MAlign would. If not them, then the Ambassador would know. A ruse is not stealth, it's hiding in plain sight: with the spotlight on them, it may not be feasible.

Note also the synergistic effect of the two codes: the attacker is not be able to choose which ship to capture. It's a matter of what they managed to get, when they got it. So they don't have control over what personnel was supposed to be aboard.

IFF and encryption codes will be current. Why wouldn't they? If not, then Grayson's own transponder will work just fine. Those codes might not carry as much weight in cases of emergency. Emergencies cannot be planned for or scheduled. And the MA would know proper RMN procedure. Besides, if the ship is captured under the right circumstances, the MA could have ordered "nothing wiped or scrubbed," unless they wanted to be turned into floating debris. Tester forbid if a Key is actually aboard the vessel being threatened. I see many of the Keys being as selfish as Pavel Young. And I'm certain you don't think Young wouldn't trade codes for his life.

BTW, Keys don't leave the system. But if they are kidnapped they may not have a choice. An imposter could fill his shoes and take a vacation. Or the Key could be kidnapped while on vacation. Because certain Keys are so self-absorbed, it would be quite easy for a bunch of Alphas to pull it off.

cthia wrote:This kind of ruse may get an enemy ship and escorts through the junction. The fact that a Key (allegedly) is part of the ruse might just be crazier enough to work even better. As you say, the Keys never leave the planet. So if a Key, allegedly, shows up claiming an emergency, he is going to get top priority. And I agree with you, he is going to get escorted all the way to his possible objective. Orbit around the planet. For what nefarious purpose or means to an end, who knows. If it is a Key, that would also explain his accompanying ships, ships which might enjoy a pleasant escort as well. IOW, an enemy ship gets protection from his enemy. In the form of escorts belonging to the enemy.

But don't miss the point. An enemy ship may make it past the maelstrom of firepower at the junction, or the immense range of MDMs, and actually be escorted into orbit?

Cool, says the Trojan Alphas.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Through the Junction I could see, but not to Manticore orbit. Arriving at the Junction with a captured allied vessel will get them priority, so they will transit in less than an hour from arrival. But again, what does that give them?

I think the ruse could get them escorted all the way into orbit during peace. Remember, this is an emergency! And once in orbit, as I said before, who knows what manner of madness the MA has concocted. I'd guess this would be an operation which begins, or at least supports, the opening phase of the war. If the ships do manage to get escorted into orbit, this would be a perfect time for MA BCs to hyper in-system. And perhaps those big fat Trojan horses can work their magic while everyone is distracted. Like targeting those brand new platforms which have been set up to detect LDs, and or, they could target the Palace. The Trojans will be destroyed, yes, but before their dirty deed is done?

And if they don't get escorted into orbit, then they'll simply have to go for secondary targets like the infrastructure at the MWJ. Civilian infrastructure. And firing on whatever ships they can. All of the time LDs are maneuvering during the distraction and setting up housekeeping in nests all over the system.