Wormhole Assault: MA Style

kzt wrote:The only active scan is radar and even against not absurdly stealthy vessels it has been said to have a fairly short range. Like a few LS. Radar drops faster than an inverse square law because there are two inverse square law elements, the transmitter and the target, involved. I think the sum total is inverse 4th power, which means you need absurd power for longe ranger, even by honorverse standards. And as you can be detected by inverse square law, if you radiate to pick up a target at a few light seconds I suspect you can be heard and localized at light hours.

Not that anyone would send some highly stealthy weapon to home on your radar…

The vast majority of honorverse detection and tracking seems to be passive.

LIDAR is also used - in targeting solutions if nothing else, but have the same limitations.

kzt wrote:The only active scan is radar and even against not absurdly stealthy vessels it has been said to have a fairly short range. Like a few LS. Radar drops faster than an inverse square law because there are two inverse square law elements, the transmitter and the target, involved. I think the sum total is inverse 4th power, which means you need absurd power for longe ranger, even by honorverse standards. And as you can be detected by inverse square law, if you radiate to pick up a target at a few light seconds I suspect you can be heard and localized at light hours.

Not that anyone would send some highly stealthy weapon to home on your radar…

The vast majority of honorverse detection and tracking seems to be passive.

munroburton wrote:Aye, this is my take as well. It's why active scanning is so seldom used - it takes any stealthiness you may have had and obliterates it. They might also expose friendly units operating under stealth.

Short-ranged active scans are very powerful, almost offensively so:

HotQ wrote:"This is ridiculous," McKeon muttered. The LACs were less than a light-second away and still not saying a word! Unless he wanted to assume Grayson had suffered some sort of fleet-wide communications failure, these turkeys had to be up to something. But what? If this was some sort of oddball exercise, he was less than amused by it.

"All right, Tactical," he said finally. "If they want to play games, let's play back. Get me a hull map off their lead unit."

"Aye, aye, Sir!" There was a grin in Carstairs's normally cold voice, and McKeon's lips twitched as he heard it. The radar pulse it would take to map a ship's hull at this range would practically melt the LAC's receivers, and most navies would understand the message he was about to send as well as Carstairs did - it was a galaxy-wide way of shouting "Hey, stupid!" at someone.

At the beginning of that chapter, these LACs brought up their impellers and were detected at around 2.5 light seconds on passives. Actives are not necessarily that short-ranged, though...

In SVW, the Havenite cruiser collecting Argus intelligence was located by a radar pulse at 18 million kilometres after giving its position away by using a com laser which happened to brush a Manticoran DD. That's sixty light seconds.

This is why I think a nest would be possible right around the WH. The Forts and warships are not going to have their radar or lidar trained upon the enemy-free zone around the junction. It is just plain rude to everybody. "Please, turn that fucking bull-horn off!" This area is generally a "radio-free Europe."

Besides, everybody knows the area in question around the junction is clean.

munroburton wrote:

kzt wrote:The only active scan is radar and even against not absurdly stealthy vessels it has been said to have a fairly short range. Like a few LS. Radar drops faster than an inverse square law because there are two inverse square law elements, the transmitter and the target, involved. I think the sum total is inverse 4th power, which means you need absurd power for longe ranger, even by honorverse standards. And as you can be detected by inverse square law, if you radiate to pick up a target at a few light seconds I suspect you can be heard and localized at light hours.

Not that anyone would send some highly stealthy weapon to home on your radar…

The vast majority of honorverse detection and tracking seems to be passive.

Aye, this is my take as well. It's why active scanning is so seldom used - it takes any stealthiness you may have had and obliterates it. They might also expose friendly units operating under stealth.

Short-ranged active scans are very powerful, almost offensively so:

HotQ wrote:"This is ridiculous," McKeon muttered. The LACs were less than a light-second away and still not saying a word! Unless he wanted to assume Grayson had suffered some sort of fleet-wide communications failure, these turkeys had to be up to something. But what? If this was some sort of oddball exercise, he was less than amused by it.
"All right, Tactical," he said finally. "If they want to play games, let's play back. Get me a hull map off their lead unit."
"Aye, aye, Sir!" There was a grin in Carstairs's normally cold voice, and McKeon's lips twitched as he heard it. The radar pulse it would take to map a ship's hull at this range would practically melt the LAC's receivers, and most navies would understand the message he was about to send as well as Carstairs did - it was a galaxy-wide way of shouting "Hey, stupid!" at someone.

At the beginning of that chapter, these LACs brought up their impellers and were detected at around 2.5 light seconds on passives. Actives are not necessarily that short-ranged, though...

In SVW, the Havenite cruiser collecting Argus intelligence was located by a radar pulse at 18 million kilometres after giving its position away by using a com laser which happened to brush a Manticoran DD. That's sixty light seconds.

cthia wrote:This is why I think a nest would be possible right around the WH. The Forts and warships are not going to have their radar or lidar trained upon the enemy-free zone around the junction. It is just plain rude to everybody. "Please, turn that fucking bull-horn off!" This area is generally a "radio-free Europe."

Besides, everybody knows the area in question around the junction is clean.

They don't need to use hull-mapping "Hey, stupid!" levels of power on the inner Junction zone. Turn it down to a reasonable 2 or 3 instead of 11.

Radar can be directed instead of omnidirectional. The spherical formation of active forts around the Junction can and should be sending powerful radar pulses outward at quite regular intervals. Out to twenty million klicks and more, it should be impossible to approach even in a very stealthy ship.

cthia wrote:This is why I think a nest would be possible right around the WH. The Forts and warships are not going to have their radar or lidar trained upon the enemy-free zone around the junction. It is just plain rude to everybody. "Please, turn that fucking bull-horn off!" This area is generally a "radio-free Europe."

Besides, everybody knows the area in question around the junction is clean.

munroburton wrote:They don't need to use hull-mapping "Hey, stupid!" levels of power on the inner Junction zone. Turn it down to a reasonable 2 or 3 instead of 11.

Radar can be directed instead of omnidirectional. The spherical formation of active forts around the Junction can and should be sending powerful radar pulses outward at quite regular intervals. Out to twenty million klicks and more, it should be impossible to approach even in a very stealthy ship.

Well, we know that the LD's stealth holds up past anything much beyond one light second, which is ~ 300,000 km. At 20M klicks you wouldn't be able to detect your own hand in front of your face. We know the Forts are positioned far enough out that their missiles can be used in that area.

Now, you are proposing dialing the power of the scans down to 2-3, atop of already greatly exceeding the range necessary to possibly detect the LD. Advantage, Spider.

And, of course, this brings us right back to the conditions of the MA's own test. Were they passive scans? Or maximum scans?

Also, even dialed down to a whisper, the effect will be the same as melting hull paint, if a ship is excessively close. Which is partly why I think ships right at the junction will not be radiating in such close proximity and company of other ships.

cthia wrote:Now, you are proposing dialing the power of the scans down to 2-3, atop of already greatly exceeding the range necessary to possibly detect the LD. Advantage, Spider.

No. I apologise, perhaps I didn't type it out clearly enough.

There is a sphere of forts surrounding the Junction. They can fire lower-power radar beams into this smaller inner Junction volume whilst firing full-power radar sweeps out, away from this zone but covering every possible approach.

At no point during these scans are they specifically aiming full-power radar beams to map the hulls of already-known friendly freighters.

They could perform those scans from above and below the ecliptic plane of the system, which means approaching freighters hit by the most powerful scans would be shielded by their impeller wedges. The magic of geometry!

And, of course, this brings us right back to the conditions of the MA's own test. Were they passive scans? Or maximum scans?

There's no direct quote either way but I can't reconcile them being able to hide from active scans at such low ranges given what we're told in HotQ and SVW about radar sensors. So I'm betting the house on passive scans.

They only got away with Oyster Bay because the prevailing wisdom prior to that attack was that nobody could sneak that much firepower past passive sensors, so even Manticore(whose most famous officer pulled off the Battle of Cerberus) didn't bother with radar sweeps.

Those circumstances are totally changed now, by Oyster Bay and the Silver Bullet strike at Beowulf. It would be criminally negligent not to conduct regular radar sweeps, however inconvenient this is.

After all, the spider ships are not the real danger. Their graser torpedoes and spider-driven missile pods are - and as at Beowulf, those can be deployed by any ordinary freighter.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Now, you are proposing dialing the power of the scans down to 2-3, atop of already greatly exceeding the range necessary to possibly detect the LD. Advantage, Spider.

No. I apologise, perhaps I didn't type it out clearly enough.

There is a sphere of forts surrounding the Junction. They can fire lower-power radar beams into this smaller inner Junction volume whilst firing full-power radar sweeps out, away from this zone but covering every possible approach.

At no point during these scans are they specifically aiming full-power radar beams to map the hulls of already-known friendly freighters.

They could perform those scans from above and below the ecliptic plane of the system, which means approaching freighters hit by the most powerful scans would be shielded by their impeller wedges. The magic of geometry!

And, of course, this brings us right back to the conditions of the MA's own test. Were they passive scans? Or maximum scans?

There's no direct quote either way but I can't reconcile them being able to hide from active scans at such low ranges given what we're told in HotQ and SVW about radar sensors. So I'm betting the house on passive scans.

They only got away with Oyster Bay because the prevailing wisdom prior to that attack was that nobody could sneak that much firepower past passive sensors, so even Manticore(whose most famous officer pulled off the Battle of Cerberus) didn't bother with radar sweeps.

Those circumstances are totally changed now, by Oyster Bay and the Silver Bullet strike at Beowulf. It would be criminally negligent not to conduct regular radar sweeps, however inconvenient this is.

After all, the spider ships are not the real danger. Their graser torpedoes and spider-driven missile pods are - and as at Beowulf, those can be deployed by any ordinary freighter.

Thanks munroburton. On the whole I think I agree. Of course, I still think a Spider can manage to set up a nest inside the inner shell of Forts nearer the junction if it can make it past the Forts' outer scans. What I proposed way upstream is certain intel acquired about specific Forts being down for maintenance and then using compulsion to get other specific Forts to ignore scans. Or taking out specific Forts in an attack with conventional ships. Either of those scenarios may be a long shot, but I still think a Spider can set up a nest if somehow it can make it inside the concentric shell of Forts. The lower powered scans simply won't detect the Spider which will most likely have very effective EW (in addition to the spider drive's innate stealthiness) which should outperform even that which the Peeps used in SVW while in hyper.

I just don't think active scans are the norm even when searching for a ship in stealth. When Abigail instructed tactical to "focus on this particular area right here ," I didn't get the feeling active scans were used. But rather more focused scans. But then, that was during the war games and not the life or death situation of real battle. Now, even if a Spider can manage to set up a nest and lay undetected, once it announces it's there and full power inner scans commence, it will be detected, in time. But, as I said before, its mission (whatever it is) will already be complete. Since Honor is protected by plot, say bye bye to Sonja and Shannon. Both of whom have undoubtedly managed to rise to the top of the CAASAP list.

I also think a friendly ship being hit with full active scans should temporarily blind or at least deaden its sensors.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We know that the MAN's own efforts show detection of significantly less than five light-minutes: one light second. Jonathan wrote above one light-minute, but I think I remembered correctly. 5 light-minutes is 300 times one light-second, linearly. In volume, we're talking about 27 million times. That's significant.

Thanks for catching that (and thanks to kzt who also pointed this mistake out). Guess that's what I get from trusting memory and not double checking.

The scene I was thinking of from MoH Ch. 28 does in fact say "But the spider also had one overwhelming advantage: it was effectively undetectable by any sensor system deployed by any navy (including the MAN itself) at any range much beyond a single light-second."

(I've edited my earlier post to show this correction)

cthia wrote:I was SURE that I read one light second somewhere. ThinksMarkedly. (rib). But as I pointed out before, I wonder about the conditions of their test. Did their own ships know the LD was out there? And where to look?

Plus, like a sub, is that its very best stealth? Like while it is "running silent" ... like subs?

All of the above is part of the reason I think an LD can manage to read your daily newspaper right along with you and you not know it's there.

Sure, there is a chance it can be detected. And risky it is. Submarine warfare has been risky business for subs since the invention of subs. It also takes a very special kind of crew.

But, like subs, certain missions call for your very best officer. He would be the one who everyone is saying can sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.

Exactly what tactics could allow an LD to sneak-up on a skunk and steal his stink?

Nano coating on the hull to thwart radar. Approaching prey from its "blind" side, which would be from the rear... the vector of least likely threat. Moving slowly, which the LDs already do. Employing a state of the art EW suite and utilizing a shape which augments stealth by minimizing cross sections that may absorb and harmlessly scatter radar in amenable vectors other than which it is received. Possibly reorienting the ship in some specific fashion relative to its prey. And whatever else constitutes "running silent." And, of course, the agonizingly calm patience which is normally associated with a spider.

In light of our discussions about full power scans, it may be possible for a warship to use active radar simply to disrupt enemy sensors in order for an LD to sneak by. Sort of like laying down "suppressive fire" to cover the LDs maneuvers.

Additions or rebuttals?

cthia wrote:Thanks munroburton. On the whole I think I agree. Of course, I still think a Spider can manage to set up a nest inside the inner shell of Forts nearer the junction if it can make it past the Forts' outer scans. What I proposed way upstream is certain intel acquired about specific Forts being down for maintenance and then using compulsion to get other specific Forts to ignore scans. Or taking out specific Forts in an attack with conventional ships.

cthia wrote:In light of our discussions about full power scans, it may be possible for a warship to use active radar simply to disrupt enemy sensors in order for an LD to sneak by. Sort of like laying down "suppressive fire" to cover the LDs maneuvers.

Additions or rebuttals?

The problem with the scenario of taking out a fort by conventional means or the hiding by jamming is that those are hardly stealthy. You may be able to sneak something in the distraction, by making the defenders not see what is there, but at this point you've put the whole system on alert. ALL the other forts will be coming to full readiness if one blows up; a suspicious sensor profile is exactly what hull-mapping radar scanning is for.

You can't sneak past the forts with just stealth. We know that 300,000 km is what MAN's own sensors couldn't detect, so even if we say that the RMN would need half that distance to detect a spider's signature, remember that the outer fort shell is probably only 200,000 km in radius. That means any point in that shell is less than 50,000 km from any three forts, less on the inner shell. The LD's stealth is not likely to hold up to that, a compulsion wouldn't work on the entire sensor team on three different forts, at the same time. Not to mention of course that the RMN has an unknown-to-the-Alignment way of detecting agents and compulsion, so they can't use that.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks munroburton. On the whole I think I agree. Of course, I still think a Spider can manage to set up a nest inside the inner shell of Forts nearer the junction if it can make it past the Forts' outer scans. What I proposed way upstream is certain intel acquired about specific Forts being down for maintenance and then using compulsion to get other specific Forts to ignore scans. Or taking out specific Forts in an attack with conventional ships.

cthia wrote:In light of our discussions about full power scans, it may be possible for a warship to use active radar simply to disrupt enemy sensors in order for an LD to sneak by. Sort of like laying down "suppressive fire" to cover the LDs maneuvers.

Additions or rebuttals?

The problem with the scenario of taking out a fort by conventional means or the hiding by jamming is that those are hardly stealthy. You may be able to sneak something in the distraction, by making the defenders not see what is there, but at this point you've put the whole system on alert. ALL the other forts will be coming to full readiness if one blows up; a suspicious sensor profile is exactly what hull-mapping radar scanning is for.

You can't sneak past the forts with just stealth. We know that 300,000 km is what MAN's own sensors couldn't detect, so even if we say that the RMN would need half that distance to detect a spider's signature, remember that the outer fort shell is probably only 200,000 km in radius. That means any point in that shell is less than 50,000 km from any three forts, less on the inner shell. The LD's stealth is not likely to hold up to that, a compulsion wouldn't work on the entire sensor team on three different forts, at the same time. Not to mention of course that the RMN has an unknown-to-the-Alignment way of detecting agents and compulsion, so they can't use that.

Don't forget all the sensor drones out there. For every fort there are probably at least 2-4 dozen drones looking out and in - many just listening with passive sensors, looking for something - anything - hinky. And the more observation sources, the easier it is to see an object occluding a "distant" point source. And this is where parallax will get you - it's difficult to show a background of stars (or anything, for that matter) to 2 or more points - something directly in line with the illusion will look good, but something off to the side will see the illusion being... off.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks munroburton. On the whole I think I agree. Of course, I still think a Spider can manage to set up a nest inside the inner shell of Forts nearer the junction if it can make it past the Forts' outer scans. What I proposed way upstream is certain intel acquired about specific Forts being down for maintenance and then using compulsion to get other specific Forts to ignore scans. Or taking out specific Forts in an attack with conventional ships.

cthia wrote:In light of our discussions about full power scans, it may be possible for a warship to use active radar simply to disrupt enemy sensors in order for an LD to sneak by. Sort of like laying down "suppressive fire" to cover the LDs maneuvers.

Additions or rebuttals?

The problem with the scenario of taking out a fort by conventional means or the hiding by jamming is that those are hardly stealthy. You may be able to sneak something in the distraction, by making the defenders not see what is there, but at this point you've put the whole system on alert. ALL the other forts will be coming to full readiness if one blows up; a suspicious sensor profile is exactly what hull-mapping radar scanning is for.

You can't sneak past the forts with just stealth. We know that 300,000 km is what MAN's own sensors couldn't detect, so even if we say that the RMN would need half that distance to detect a spider's signature, remember that the outer fort shell is probably only 200,000 km in radius. That means any point in that shell is less than 50,000 km from any three forts, less on the inner shell. The LD's stealth is not likely to hold up to that, a compulsion wouldn't work on the entire sensor team on three different forts, at the same time. Not to mention of course that the RMN has an unknown-to-the-Alignment way of detecting agents and compulsion, so they can't use that.

I'm talking about a coordinated attack with all of those BCs they've got, when there is no need for the BCs to be stealthy. They would purposely come over the hyper wall flashing bright neon signs which say "look at me." The suppressing active scans would be laid down by the conventional ships to assist the LD in its maneuvers to establish nests in intimate places. It would be made to look like a sweep by the BCs for stealthy Manty ships. That wave of BCs doesn't even have to be the main prong of attack. That will come after the LDs have set up nests all over the system. The LDs will not tip their hand during the first operation. Heck, the RMN won't even know nor suspect that these ships are MA related, thus will see no need to scan the system. They will be completely oblivious to the fact that they've been infiltrated.

You're probably right about killing the Forts in that manner because I was thinking too small. Which is totally unlike the MA. The nanites should be used in conjunction with embedded software to compel the Forts to fire on each other. It's a little rough around the edges but you get the message.