Wormhole Assault: MA Style

cthia wrote:Each single translation is instantaneous as we've discussed before. There must be a point where the transit can be initiated - which is the point where the transit lane begins to "bite" upstream. Yet, how can this happen simultaneously for each ship in a mass transit. And if it doesn't happen for each ship simultaneously, then how can each ship be part of the mass transit. Think of a 100 meter dash in the Olympics. It seems that all of the runners must cross the finish line in a "photo finish" to be a part of the mass transit.

It seems obvious that the "bite" will occur for the leading ships in the formation before the ships bringing up the rear. Which means the forward ships will be "riding the bite." (I can't shake the image of riding the clutch on a manual shift auto, thus experiencing more wear and tear. You can destroy your clutch if you ride it too long before shifting.)

One possible explanation is that once the lead ships trigger the transit, all ships in the lane will be considered as one transit even though each ship is significantly farther apart than the time it takes for a single ship to actually transit, i.e., each ship somehow holds the door open? Seems weird.

A second explanation which is more likely is that after each ship is accelerating down the transit lane, each one has to initiate it's hyper drive within micro-milliseconds of each other. I can accept that that is possible and that time isn't being screwed with by the WH at that point. But there will still be some ship's that will have to "ride the clutch."

There are certainly a lot of things we don't know about the mechanics of simultaneous transits. Only one is seen in the books, and it's barely described; and even the theory is hardly touched on.

Though you did overlook the fact that the transit lane itself appears to be wide enough for many ships to proceed in parallel (Sails are up to about 300 km in diameter, while the transit lane, or at least the area fatal to impellers, is 20-40,000 km in diameter). However we also don't know what percentage of that area a ship can be in to transit successfully. But the mass transit doesn't necessarily have to have all ships aligned nose to tail.

And we also don't have a single word about how the hyper generators are managed for a mass transit.
They might have to have perfectly synchronized clocks.
You might have a tiny timing window in which to extend the transit.
One ship might be able to extend its field (like Thunder of God did with the Masadan LACs) so it uses its hyper generator to jump multiple ships down the wormhole.
Or, for all we know, if you overlap hyper generator fields with reasonably close timing their physics may cause them to fall into perfect synchronization.

We're just guessing because RFC has been silent on those mechanics. (And, unlike some other things we speculate about, I can't think of any text clues to help narrow down the possibilities)




Though I will say, contrary to Theemile, that nobody in the Honorverse mentioned any possibility of simultaniously transiting ships interpenetrating in transit (and Honor apparently didn't lose any of her ships that way). That's a concern in other universes (including RFC's Starfire novels) but there's no indication that that risk applies in the Honorverse. (Though you could still have ships collide after safely emerging; such as happened to two of White Haven's destroyers during the minimum interval serial transit to Basilisk)

Jonathan_S wrote:


Though I will say, contrary to Theemile, that nobody in the Honorverse mentioned any possibility of simultaniously transiting ships interpenetrating in transit (and Honor apparently didn't lose any of her ships that way). That's a concern in other universes (including RFC's Starfire novels) but there's no indication that that risk applies in the Honorverse. (Though you could still have ships collide after safely emerging; such as happened to two of White Haven's destroyers during the minimum interval serial transit to Basilisk)

Oh my, Am I misremembering Universes - my notes have the interference issue. I'll have to look...

Jonathan_S wrote:Though you did overlook the fact that the transit lane itself appears to be wide enough for many ships to proceed in parallel (Sails are up to about 300 km in diameter, while the transit lane, or at least the area fatal to impellers, is 20-40,000 km in diameter). However we also don't know what percentage of that area a ship can be in to transit successfully. But the mass transit doesn't necessarily have to have all ships aligned nose to tail.

Thanks, although I didn't actually overlook it.

I dismissed it as a possibility because of what someone seemed to suggest upstream; when it was suggested that the targeting of a Spider sitting in a nest could be obstructed by the leading elements. It seems if they are all lined up side by side or in parallel, that would be perfect from the view of a Spider sitting in a nest. Like shooting ducks, all sitting perfectly in a row.

Theemile wrote:Oh my, Am I misremembering Universes - my notes have the interference issue. I'll have to look...

RFC may still change his mind, but no, I don't think this was mentioned in HV. Only in Starfire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:We know probes get destroyed when they get too close; but nothing about ships. (Though we do know it's dangerous to ships if they screw up the timing of converting to sails as they enter that part of the departure lane). So it's not outside the realm of possibility that the abort maneuver is simply to sail straight through without triggering your hyper generator.

By the way, did any of those probes transit? Or was Harvest Joy the first actual transit in both cases?

Am I missing something here? How can there be any doubt whether or not the probes transited? The probes have neither sails or hyper generator.

However, if either simply continues right on thru then the entire premise of this thread becomes impossible. But I don't think that is what happens for the simple fact that so much research goes into a new WH discovery before any actual attempt is made to transit, because of the danger of destruction. What is the danger from?

I posit that the danger is running into a focused area of gravitic waves without a way to harness them, like entering a raging rapids in the most powerful area of the river without a canoe, or paddle. Again, in sailing terms, it's like jibing into the wind improperly which results in capsizing and or sudden death. You've got to be able to ride the waves instead of being pummeled by them, as a sailing ship or canoe in high winds and waves, or a surfer in the ocean. Get up on that board and be prepared, or you will never get into hyper, you'll only wipe out.

A ship cannot survive in hyper without sails, nor a canoe without a paddle, nor a surfer without a board. A ship cannot enter hyper without a hyper generator. Yet, textev gives us a point where the transit lane begins to bite. "Bite," as my guess, is when the intensity of the grav waves becomes formidable (akin to a jetfighter reaching the correct speed for liftoff).

"Bite" you on the ass if you are not properly prepared. No sails, no hyper generator, no tomorrow.

Also, consider this:

Wiki wrote:When a ship translated back into normal space, the field could no longer be sustained and evaporated in a flash of "transit energy", with the energy bleed-off automatically taking the generator out of translation mode and dropping it back down into Stand-By Readiness (see levels of readiness below).

Does that mean the transit lane is not n-space? The field seems to be sustained for more than a flash. Also, why do we never hear tell of the brilliant bleed of transit energy in transits?

cthia wrote:By the way, did any of those probes transit? Or was Harvest Joy the first actual transit in both cases?

Am I missing something here? How can there be any doubt whether or not the probes transited? The probes have neither sails or hyper generator. [/quote]

I knew the probes did not mount sails. But I wasn't sure about a hypergenerator, even a small one. That's why I asked.

The text also shows the probes survived, without sail, up until the point of the wormhole interface. That means it survived in the transit lane.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:By the way, did any of those probes transit? Or was Harvest Joy the first actual transit in both cases?

Am I missing something here? How can there be any doubt whether or not the probes transited? The probes have neither sails or hyper generator.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I knew the probes did not mount sails. But I wasn't sure about a hypergenerator, even a small one. That's why I asked.

The text also shows the probes survived, without sail, up until the point of the wormhole interface. That means it survived in the transit lane.

That part seems intuitive. The probe survived right up until the moment it hits a wall - a wall of focused grav waves - the point where the transit lane begins to bite.

I suppose it is a fair question of whether simply a hyper generator can at least get objects to transit, but not survive. In which case the exit lane at the destination would simply spew out debris?



P.S. We are beginning to be slack again about attributes. A few times in this thread and elsewhere. We should all be experts by now.

cthia wrote:A ship cannot survive in hyper without sails, nor a canoe without a paddle, nor a surfer without a board. A ship cannot enter hyper without a hyper generator. Yet, textev gives us a point where the transit lane begins to bite. "Bite," as my guess, is when the intensity of the grav waves becomes formidable (akin to a jetfighter reaching the correct speed for liftoff).

You probably just misspoke - but ships can absolutely survive in hyper just fine without sails. They just need to avoid grav waves. (Which is how exploration ships exploited hyper for about 5 centuries prior to the invention of the Warshawski sail in 1273 PD)

Hence how the Manticore Trust, when they launched the sub-light colony ship Jason (about 50 years after then invention of the first hyper drive), already had first hand data exploration data on the Manticore system planets. One of those very early hyper capable (but pre-sail) scout ships had visited the system, performed an initial survey, and then the system with survey data was sold to a prospective colony expedition. (But Jason herself wouldn't reach Manticore for about 6.5 centuries)

But you're right that you can't enter hyper without a hyper generator. (Though, as we've seen, it doesn't have to be a hyper generator aboard your ship; a ship in close formation could extend its hyper field and bring you with it into hyper. Or a larger hyper ship could bring along some externally docked smaller hyper capable ships; using only the larger ship's hyper generator)

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I knew the probes did not mount sails. But I wasn't sure about a hypergenerator, even a small one. That's why I asked.

The text also shows the probes survived, without sail, up until the point of the wormhole interface. That means it survived in the transit lane.

That part seems intuitive. The probe survived right up until the moment it hits a wall - a wall of focused grav waves - the point where the transit lane begins to bite.

I suppose it is a fair question of whether simply a hyper generator can at least get objects to transit, but not survive. In which case the exit lane at the destination would simply spew out debris?



P.S. We are beginning to be slack again about attributes. A few times in this thread and elsewhere. We should all be experts by now.

Actually the text only says the probes don't mount a hyper generator. I couldn't find anything that said one way of the other about them mounting sails.

And what I termed the transit lane "bite" is when ships first have to transition to sail because it's the point the transit lane's grav strength just become high enough for the sail to provide thrust (and stabilizatino). WoH says the probes were destroyed when they reached the "interface of the terminus itself". I presume that's the point near/at which ships have to transit into the wormhole; which in the case of the Junction seems to be about 90,000 km down the lane from the point they have to transition to sails.

So from that text it appears that the probes survived crossing at least some of the lane (though it's possible that a ship under sail launched them from much closer to the interface than the far end of the lane; or maybe they were launched in from the side where they'd have to cover less grav turbulent area, or maybe they do have a sail to stabilize them. We just don't know)

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I knew the probes did not mount sails. But I wasn't sure about a hypergenerator, even a small one. That's why I asked.

The text also shows the probes survived, without sail, up until the point of the wormhole interface. That means it survived in the transit lane.

That part seems intuitive. The probe survived right up until the moment it hits a wall - a wall of focused grav waves - the point where the transit lane begins to bite.

I suppose it is a fair question of whether simply a hyper generator can at least get objects to transit, but not survive. In which case the exit lane at the destination would simply spew out debris?



P.S. We are beginning to be slack again about attributes. A few times in this thread and elsewhere. We should all be experts by now.

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually the text only says the probes don't mount a hyper generator. I couldn't find anything that said one way of the other about them mounting sails.

And what I termed the transit lane "bite" is when ships first have to transition to sail because it's the point the transit lane's grav strength just become high enough for the sail to provide thrust (and stabilizatino). WoH says the probes were destroyed when they reached the "interface of the terminus itself". I presume that's the point near/at which ships have to transit into the wormhole; which in the case of the Junction seems to be about 90,000 km down the lane from the point they have to transition to sails.

So from that text it appears that the probes survived crossing at least some of the lane (though it's possible that a ship under sail launched them from much closer to the interface than the far end of the lane; or maybe they were launched in from the side where they'd have to cover less grav turbulent area, or maybe they do have a sail to stabilize them. We just don't know)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:A ship cannot survive in hyper without sails, nor a canoe without a paddle, nor a surfer without a board. A ship cannot enter hyper without a hyper generator. Yet, textev gives us a point where the transit lane begins to bite. "Bite," as my guess, is when the intensity of the grav waves becomes formidable (akin to a jetfighter reaching the correct speed for liftoff).

You probably just misspoke - but ships can absolutely survive in hyper just fine without sails. They just need to avoid grav waves. (Which is how exploration ships exploited hyper for about 5 centuries prior to the invention of the Warshawski sail in 1273 PD)

Hence how the Manticore Trust, when they launched the sub-light colony ship Jason (about 50 years after then invention of the first hyper drive), already had first hand data exploration data on the Manticore system planets. One of those very early hyper capable (but pre-sail) scout ships had visited the system, performed an initial survey, and then the system with survey data was sold to a prospective colony expedition. (But Jason herself wouldn't reach Manticore for about 6.5 centuries)

But you're right that you can't enter hyper without a hyper generator. (Though, as we've seen, it doesn't have to be a hyper generator aboard your ship; a ship in close formation could extend its hyper field and bring you with it into hyper. Or a larger hyper ship could bring along some externally docked smaller hyper capable ships; using only the larger ship's hyper generator)

Yes, I misspoke. I knew I misspoke and I intended to look it up, but got distracted with whatever. Thanks for correcting that.

Not that I know one way or the other, but personally I wouldn't guess that the probe was launched from the side, possibly entering the turbulence at a perpendicular angle. I would imagine that would destroy it immediately. But I'm only guessing. In the raging rapids, a canoe must "merge" with the waves as a car merges with traffic to keep from capsizing. Or a sailboat. As I always envisioned ships do when entering the WH. I always imagine ships must have some forward velocity when the sails catches the waves, but, I could certainly be wrong. I certainly favor your explanation even better.