Wormhole Assault: MA Style

cthia wrote:ThinksMarkedly, your conclusion and logic as to why the LD's punch line isn't faster missiles is remarkable. Jonathan's post nailed the coffin shut, but he gratefully left a little light shining thru with the instant acceleration of the missiles in the Starfire series. I'll accept that as an act of kindness to know that at least my notion isn't beyond even the annals of "Sci-Fi." Sad because I think it is perfect for the doctrine and profile of the LDs.

The Starfire drive field has some big inconsistencies. For example, they claim a ship can't turn quickly, but that once the drive field is shut down, the ship drops to whatever speed it had before turning it on. Those two can't happen together, because you could then simply turn it off, change the ship's orientation and turn it back on. It's not instant, but it's very quick.

And in any case, if we're talking about importing Starfire technologies, I want the AMBAMMs for warp point assaults. Unlike Starfire warp point transits, wormhole transits in the HV don't knock your systems offline and disorient people, so the technology should work even better in the HV. Load a couple hundred pods' worth of laserheads on a barge, strap on a Warshawski sail and a hypergenerator, then send it through the Congo Wormwhole.

There is one misnomer. Subs did attack harbors. The Japanese attacked Sydney Harbor and, although unsuccessful, mini subs were also dispatched to Pearl. And, modern subs today oftentimes thread the needle and sit less than 100 miles offshore of major ports consuming champaign and listening to media broadcasts after having successfully tested the waters of their own stealth. Frightening!

Fair enough, but attacking the important systems in the HV would be like a German U-boat trying to attack Norfolk.

Again, your logic is sound but my Spider-senses are still tingling. Namely, if LDs were simply designed to smash and crash, they don't need approximately 100 of them to do that. Such a large fleet of LDs represent an inordinate amount of overkill simply to wage a scorched earth policy on the appropriate systems. So, the MA had to have had other plans in mind at the time of the LDs conception. Hmm, unless a scorched earth policy is exactly the point! Setting the stage for another Sally-the-Man-der on Fire!

I have to agree, though I don't remember them ever saying they were building a specific quantity. There has to be something more.

It could also be "throw good money after bad." When one fails to see that he strategy has already failed and feels compelled to continue to find ways to make past investments pay out, somehow.

Another problem with the general consensus of the proposed strategy of the LDs smash and crash is it doesn't answer the question "to what end?" Even if the MA is successful at completely destroying the infrastructure of the major players, what then? Do they just retire to Darius and celebrate? Do they then initiate the RF part of the proposed equation? The RF part of the equation could have been completed without going to so much trouble. The LDs would have been effective enough to sneak into Sol harbor and destroy everything, considering SL stupidity, arrogance and lack of preparedness. We all know about SL doctrine. The LDs could have wiped out every single Fleet of the SLN and OFS, without even needing to manufacture and instigate Peep help.

Agreed too.

But again, to what end? The industrial might of the SL would rebuild. The systems of the GA would rebuild. And the GA's warships would still be intact. IOW, a smash and crash only seems a wasted effort unless it is also supported by a smash and grab, which includes assimilating specific systems.

That would include defeating supporting ships, controlling orbitals and landing troops. All which is believed to be opposite the original strategy and doctrine of the MA and its fleet of LDs. Which is what the MA's original plan of instigating a war between the SL and the Peeps was to allow them to do.

Partially agreed here. I agree that there has to be more to the strategy otherwise smash and crash is a wasted effort. It probably includes defeating supporting ships, though ships without a harbour will eventually die on the vine. I don't think it ever included landing troops.

However, something still smells fishy. Because, with the SL so thoroughly snookered and infiltrated, the MAN itself could have singlehandedly waged war against the SL and completely destroyed every single ship the SL had along with supporting infrastructure, which includes major bases across the board. Consider that the MA showed a remarkable ability to control the movements of the gorilla. Coral them in mock-up exercises at predetermined points and BOOM. Destroy naval bases and the reserve. Then woo away as many planets and absorb them into the RF. The MA didn't even need Oyster Bay. They were presented with providence because the Peeps and Manties were quite busy destroying themselves.

The MA flushed the ability to pull off the galaxy's first short victorious war against the SL right down the toilet. Without the need to prematurely unwrap their tech. At that point they would have been free to activate the RF phase of the plan.

That's a very good point.

The immediate conclusion is that they didn't want to do that. The SL being defeated by an external enemy rallies all the members against that enemy and its occupation. The SL getting thrashed by Haven but ultimately winning, then crumbling as internal fault lines finally fail instead paves the way for the silent take-over. Then the population doesn't even know it's been dominated.

There were a couple of times when WW II subs attacked harbors or at least something other than straight shipping. Early in the war a U-boat made it's way into- I believe Scapa Flow- and sank a British capital ship before threading it's way back out.

Then there was Japan's use of float-planes off subs to create a little havoc, at least fear, on the US West Coast though they didn't do much in either the way of actual damage or(that any body has turned up) intelligence information.
On the other hand, there was a IJN sub operation to replace the float planes on one or more of the truly large subs with amphibious tanks....and swim them into the lagoon of one of the atolls ( I think it was Ulithi) to attack the truly large US combined 3rd fleet inside of it. They were lauched at night to make the attack. I don't think the IJN planed to get any of their people back but it was a bold move. At least one of the tanks made it both over the reef/ one of the barrier islets and is believed to be responsible (good choice of targets) of causing the obliteration of a ammuntion ship when it's cargo went off. The operation was not know till well after the war and at the time it was presumed the ship suffered a problem with of it's cargo.

But LD's are not an equivelnt of WW II subs though they are more like a modern SSBN. They are super stealthy. The main weapon system is one that can approch a target -under power/navigaton- without detection till the weapon (the grazer) goes off and which is capable of deploying (we presume since the Shark's did it) multiple hundreds of effectivly ballistic weapons (in the main also functionally undetectable) to strike at "fixed" targets. Fixed in the sence of being orbital facilities in determinable and fixed orbits. That includes not only stations like the three Manticore had but detached warehousing, extraction or processing installations, habitats, dispersed shipyards, training facilities (like orbital (near something) or positioned LAC training centers away from traffic and casual observation.
If you also are not worried at all about EE violations, you can just put a few of those ballistic packages into KEW trajectories and punch through the atmosphere to hit "special" target for political (as in wipe out the local political sturcture) or pick off places on the ground that build critical things or perhaps spaceports. After all, every shuttle or heavy cargo lifter and the crews of same that you kill on the ground at the same time as destroying the related facilities is just that much less your adversary has to try and recover with.

The Alighment really hates Beowulf. Very deeply and activly hates Beowulf and all it stands for. ONE of the points in the background reveals with the Alighment is they want to wipe away much of what Beowulf stands for (and for which Detweiler and his vision was reiled enough to leave for Mesa) and they want to REPLACE everything Beowulfan in terms of Medical and Moral ethics and codes with the Alighnment version. We are told that they intend to use the RF to indoctrinate and see every system it brings into it's Faction with variations of the Alighment philosophy and spread that to EVERY other system they interact with. Build it right into the schooling and medical establishments of each system so the population absorbes it and comes to see the Alighment's goals and philosophy as both normal and right.
The Alignment also isn't planning to come out and be the kind of rulers as a Pharaoh or Shah or God Emperor of Dune.....they will be puppet masters. Lots of decided and yet controlled small segments all dancing to the Darius tune but at such a remove that they have no ability to strike back. And go on adjusting the human genome as they see fit.

Brigade XO wrote:In that context the Lenny Detweilers are perfect. They hide, they attack, they just don't seem to be going after single ships or convoys but as infrastructure raiders. Look at what was done to Manticore and Grayson. They had the majority of their ability to produce and support any starships destroyed at the same time as they lost the ships in longer term orbits and all the personel on the stations and other installations.
I don't think the MA has any intention of engaging in conventional warfare of captureing systems. They really don't care about the numbers of "normals" they kill nor the amount of destruction they inflict on a system. What counts is that the system, or multi-system polity will eventualy crash and the Alignment intends to rebuild the POLITIAL and SOCIAL sturcture of evey system to meet the designs of The Plan.

Look at the description of the initual systems of the RF and the ruling politics and system. And that they intend these RF systems to "inoculate" the social, moral and political systems of their conquests. They don't care how many billions die as long as the result is good little Alignment subject.

Sure, the LD's make massive stealth platforms to saturate a system with devices to smash things, even to sneak upon a fleet "anchorage" and slaughter ships. But they are designed to obliterate the orbital capasity and production of a system to bring it down to where the population will "choose" the Alignment philosophy as the "best" alternative. Rebuild each system from it's ashes if you can't do it through "education".
If you think that can't be right, then why spend all this time and effort to set up the crushing of the League, Haven, Manticore and so many other ...so you can "rescue" them with the RF.

I wonder back during the ceasefire the MAlign was looking at using the Lenny Dets to covertly intensify and rebalance the conventional wars they were trying to foment between Manticore and Haven and then Haven and the League.
Kind of like how they waited for the RMN reached orbit before setting off the widespread Houdini nukes -- so they get the blame for the atrocity. Or even reminiscent of how their patsies edited diplomatic communique to enflame things and manipulate Haven and Manticore back into war.


I'm thinking they could do something subtle with super stealthy infrastructure killing ships. Instead of exposing that capability by making a single massive Oyster Bay style attack when there's no enemy around to blame do smaller attacks that will most likely get blamed on their known enemy.

Spread out smaller detachments of Lenny Dets to systems likely to get hit by one side or the other of the war the MAlign tricked the two into. Then while the raid or attack is in progress using the Lenny Dets to secretly wreck infrastructure and/or commit attrocities. How likely is your enemy to believe that the things that blew up while you were attacking their system weren't caused by you?

Done carefully it can really escalate the war and retaliatory strikes also get "helpfully" magnified. After a few rounds of that almost anybody will be believing the worst of their enemy and stop looking for other explanations (like secret cabals of unknown parties pushing the combatants into mutual destruction). And it shouldn't be long before the sides are ordering there ships to retaliate with infrastructure raids and counter attrocities.

And if one side seems to be getting an advantage you don't want you can undo some of that by changing how hard you hit each side, and what types of targets you pick.

By masking your attacks by restricting them to when a known opponent is around to take the blame the MAlign can probably keeps totally behind the scenes for a long time.


Deniably wrecking Haven and Manticore's infrastructures - and branding them with public responsibility for fighting a nasty war with atrocities on both sides - makes them unattractive for systems breaking away from the wreck of the League. And if those systems breaking away got their own infrastructure wrecked during the conflicts that makes an RF system offering security and aid in rebuilding that much more attractive.


But doing this requires the Lenny Dets avoid getting seen - so no exposing themselves in close range attacks. Even if you killed everybody within range and snuck away there's too much of a chance somebody outside combat range saw something. And that undermines this attempt to manipulate things from behind the scenes.


However - they'd have a much harder time following such a strategy now after exposing the fact there's somebody out there capably of wrecking the infrastructure of even the most heavily defended system without being seen. That's likely make people think again about things "coincidentally" blowing up when an enemy is around.

But I guess the 2nd war looked to be wrapping up far too soon for their plans - so they risked giving up a long term strategy the Lenny Dets seems ideal for in order to try to keep the conflict alive long enough for them to get fully into the game and try to push Haven and Manticore into a mutually crippling long war.

Brigade XO wrote:There were a couple of times when WW II subs attacked harbors or at least something other than straight shipping. Early in the war a U-boat made it's way into- I believe Scapa Flow- and sank a British capital ship before threading it's way back out.

Then there was Japan's use of float-planes off subs to create a little havoc, at least fear, on the US West Coast though they didn't do much in either the way of actual damage or(that any body has turned up) intelligence information.
On the other hand, there was a IJN sub operation to replace the float planes on one or more of the truly large subs with amphibious tanks....and swim them into the lagoon of one of the atolls ( I think it was Ulithi) to attack the truly large US combined 3rd fleet inside of it. They were lauched at night to make the attack. I don't think the IJN planed to get any of their people back but it was a bold move. At least one of the tanks made it both over the reef/ one of the barrier islets and is believed to be responsible (good choice of targets) of causing the obliteration of a ammuntion ship when it's cargo went off. The operation was not know till well after the war and at the time it was presumed the ship suffered a problem with of it's cargo.

That was Günther Prien in U-47 who, in 1939, snuck into the harbor of Scapa Flow and sunk one of the Royal Navy's older battleships, HMS Royal Oak.

And the Italian subs sent in what we'd now call special operations forces, frogmen using torpedoes modified for personnel transport, to infiltrate Alexandria harbor and set up demolition charges that crippled the RN battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant.

And there were other less famous attacks that subs, midget subs, or human torpedoes, launched on ships in harbor.


But I'm not aware of any instance where a submarine attacked the harbor infrastructure itself. As much as it hurts to lose a ships, that's far more survivable than losing shipyards, drydocks, fuel depots, and the other things that are analogous to losing Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland. But most of that infrastructure isn't vulnerable to a submerged WWI/WWII sub - and even if it wasn't suicide to surface near/in a defended harbor subs of that era had very limited ability to attack land targets.

So I'd say subs of that era did something attack ships in harbor, but (to as far as I know) never attacked the a harbor itself.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:There were a couple of times when WW II subs attacked harbors or at least something other than straight shipping. Early in the war a U-boat made it's way into- I believe Scapa Flow- and sank a British capital ship before threading it's way back out.

Then there was Japan's use of float-planes off subs to create a little havoc, at least fear, on the US West Coast though they didn't do much in either the way of actual damage or(that any body has turned up) intelligence information.
On the other hand, there was a IJN sub operation to replace the float planes on one or more of the truly large subs with amphibious tanks....and swim them into the lagoon of one of the atolls ( I think it was Ulithi) to attack the truly large US combined 3rd fleet inside of it. They were lauched at night to make the attack. I don't think the IJN planed to get any of their people back but it was a bold move. At least one of the tanks made it both over the reef/ one of the barrier islets and is believed to be responsible (good choice of targets) of causing the obliteration of a ammuntion ship when it's cargo went off. The operation was not know till well after the war and at the time it was presumed the ship suffered a problem with of it's cargo.

That was Günther Prien in U-47 who, in 1939, snuck into the harbor of Scapa Flow and sunk one of the Royal Navy's older battleships, HMS Royal Oak.

And the Italian subs sent in what we'd now call special operations forces, frogmen using torpedoes modified for personnel transport, to infiltrate Alexandria harbor and set up demolition charges that crippled the RN battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant.

And there were other less famous attacks that subs, midget subs, or human torpedoes, launched on ships in harbor.


But I'm not aware of any instance where a submarine attacked the harbor infrastructure itself. As much as it hurts to lose a ships, that's far more survivable than losing shipyards, drydocks, fuel depots, and the other things that are analogous to losing Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland. But most of that infrastructure isn't vulnerable to a submerged WWI/WWII sub - and even if it wasn't suicide to surface near/in a defended harbor subs of that era had very limited ability to attack land targets.

So I'd say subs of that era did something attack ships in harbor, but (to as far as I know) never attacked the a harbor itself.

That was due to a lack of means, not desire.

The Soviet nuclear torpedoes are the first time a sup has the capability of doing severe damage to a harbor directly.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm thinking they could do something subtle with super stealthy infrastructure killing ships. Instead of exposing that capability by making a single massive Oyster Bay style attack when there's no enemy around to blame do smaller attacks that will most likely get blamed on their known enemy.

Spread out smaller detachments of Lenny Dets to systems likely to get hit by one side or the other of the war the MAlign tricked the two into. Then while the raid or attack is in progress using the Lenny Dets to secretly wreck infrastructure and/or commit attrocities. How likely is your enemy to believe that the things that blew up while you were attacking their system weren't caused by you?

Done carefully it can really escalate the war and retaliatory strikes also get "helpfully" magnified. After a few rounds of that almost anybody will be believing the worst of their enemy and stop looking for other explanations (like secret cabals of unknown parties pushing the combatants into mutual destruction). And it shouldn't be long before the sides are ordering there ships to retaliate with infrastructure raids and counter attrocities.

And if one side seems to be getting an advantage you don't want you can undo some of that by changing how hard you hit each side, and what types of targets you pick.

By masking your attacks by restricting them to when a known opponent is around to take the blame the MAlign can probably keeps totally behind the scenes for a long time.

That's an interesting tactic that might have worked had not the war progressed to the point where it is now. As it is, I see three problems with it:

First, there's no way to plant nuclear bombs in or right next to those installations without raising suspicions. Getting bombs inside was already done in both New Tuscany and in Beowulf, which makes looking out for nuclear explosions from the inside quite a tell. There's no need for one side to send military forces to fight in a system if they've already penetrated with bombs. And besides, now that the Galaxy knows that The Other Guys exist and their tactics, repeating the same tactics will not shift blame. That's why the Mesan Atrocity will not last more than halfway through the next book: it's too inconsistent with GA tactics and too consistent with Other Guys' tactics.

The second is that you can't fake GA military tech. If they were trying to blame the SLN, which has the same missiles, sure. But without access to real MDM tech, they can't fake the missile signatures. And in order to get atrocities blamed, you need the survivors to come out of it with some sensor data.

The third is that this does not seem like a good use of an LD, even if the previous problems didn't exist. You need a freighter that can legitimately stealthily drop pods, like was done at Beowulf. An LD is probably too big for this task and requires the mobilisation of that huge investment for a much longer time: remember that even your second tier systems will have hyperspace detection out to several light-days, so the LD needs to transit much further out, come in on n-space and wait for a long time until an attack happens.

Deniably wrecking Haven and Manticore's infrastructures - and branding them with public responsibility for fighting a nasty war with atrocities on both sides - makes them unattractive for systems breaking away from the wreck of the League. And if those systems breaking away got their own infrastructure wrecked during the conflicts that makes an RF system offering security and aid in rebuilding that much more attractive.

I'm not sure you're talking in the hypothetical (during or prior to the war) or in the concrete. Because there's no way someone can unexplainably wreck Haven or Manticore's infrastructure now and the blame not fall on the MAlign.

However - they'd have a much harder time following such a strategy now after exposing the fact there's somebody out there capably of wrecking the infrastructure of even the most heavily defended system without being seen. That's likely make people think again about things "coincidentally" blowing up when an enemy is around.

Yup, quite so.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm thinking they could do something subtle with super stealthy infrastructure killing ships. Instead of exposing that capability by making a single massive Oyster Bay style attack when there's no enemy around to blame do smaller attacks that will most likely get blamed on their known enemy.

Spread out smaller detachments of Lenny Dets to systems likely to get hit by one side or the other of the war the MAlign tricked the two into. Then while the raid or attack is in progress using the Lenny Dets to secretly wreck infrastructure and/or commit attrocities. How likely is your enemy to believe that the things that blew up while you were attacking their system weren't caused by you?

Done carefully it can really escalate the war and retaliatory strikes also get "helpfully" magnified. After a few rounds of that almost anybody will be believing the worst of their enemy and stop looking for other explanations (like secret cabals of unknown parties pushing the combatants into mutual destruction). And it shouldn't be long before the sides are ordering there ships to retaliate with infrastructure raids and counter attrocities.

And if one side seems to be getting an advantage you don't want you can undo some of that by changing how hard you hit each side, and what types of targets you pick.

By masking your attacks by restricting them to when a known opponent is around to take the blame the MAlign can probably keeps totally behind the scenes for a long time.

That's an interesting tactic that might have worked had not the war progressed to the point where it is now. As it is, I see three problems with it:

First, there's no way to plant nuclear bombs in or right next to those installations without raising suspicions. Getting bombs inside was already done in both New Tuscany and in Beowulf, which makes looking out for nuclear explosions from the inside quite a tell. There's no need for one side to send military forces to fight in a system if they've already penetrated with bombs. And besides, now that the Galaxy knows that The Other Guys exist and their tactics, repeating the same tactics will not shift blame. That's why the Mesan Atrocity will not last more than halfway through the next book: it's too inconsistent with GA tactics and too consistent with Other Guys' tactics.

The second is that you can't fake GA military tech. If they were trying to blame the SLN, which has the same missiles, sure. But without access to real MDM tech, they can't fake the missile signatures. And in order to get atrocities blamed, you need the survivors to come out of it with some sensor data.

The third is that this does not seem like a good use of an LD, even if the previous problems didn't exist. You need a freighter that can legitimately stealthily drop pods, like was done at Beowulf. An LD is probably too big for this task and requires the mobilisation of that huge investment for a much longer time: remember that even your second tier systems will have hyperspace detection out to several light-days, so the LD needs to transit much further out, come in on n-space and wait for a long time until an attack happens.

Deniably wrecking Haven and Manticore's infrastructures - and branding them with public responsibility for fighting a nasty war with atrocities on both sides - makes them unattractive for systems breaking away from the wreck of the League. And if those systems breaking away got their own infrastructure wrecked during the conflicts that makes an RF system offering security and aid in rebuilding that much more attractive.

I'm not sure you're talking in the hypothetical (during or prior to the war) or in the concrete. Because there's no way someone can unexplainably wreck Haven or Manticore's infrastructure now and the blame not fall on the MAlign.

However - they'd have a much harder time following such a strategy now after exposing the fact there's somebody out there capably of wrecking the infrastructure of even the most heavily defended system without being seen. That's likely make people think again about things "coincidentally" blowing up when an enemy is around.

Yup, quite so.

Like... woe! Brilliant plan, Jonathan!

It isn't clear what time-frame you are talking about. My first read through I thought you meant that this could have been part of the original conception of the LDs. Which I think is brilliant.

This reminds me of how kids used to get classmates slapped by pulling a girl's hair from behind then quickly moving away leaving an innocent classmate to get slapped because he is the closest one to the crime, therefore he must be guilty. Same concept.

Most, if not all, of the MA's strategies were a hodgepodge of Machiavellian plans. Had they not prematurely rushed their plans and jumped the track, this would have been a perfect instigation strategy. Think about it. Neither the Peeps nor the Manties trusted each other. And both Hemphill and Foraker were very busy in the garage. Even if it were determined that new tech was involved, it would have been attributed to the other.

Before it was known that they were not alone in the galaxy, there literally would have been nobody else to blame. In fact, time being of the essence, each of them would have had no other choice but to proceed as if it was the enemy. Each of their subjects would have been screaming bloody murder and revenge. During the ceasefire would have been a perfect time to attack Manticore. Beth would have been livid. It also could explain the need for so many ships. Which could have hit a lot of systems at once. Alphas surely could have made it look like a strategy of the enemy. It is a brilliant plan that may have nailed the LDs original strategy. Inhumane escalations would have made both Manticore and Haven utterly destroy each other. As a result, there would not have been any more of Honor's "wars waged by humans."

Ingenious! Of course, that ship has sailed.

Albeit, it could not have been used to instigate a second war, pitting the victor against the SLN.

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Late edit: contributed -> attributed.

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Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:There were a couple of times when WW II subs attacked harbors or at least something other than straight shipping. Early in the war a U-boat made it's way into- I believe Scapa Flow- and sank a British capital ship before threading it's way back out.

Then there was Japan's use of float-planes off subs to create a little havoc, at least fear, on the US West Coast though they didn't do much in either the way of actual damage or(that any body has turned up) intelligence information.
On the other hand, there was a IJN sub operation to replace the float planes on one or more of the truly large subs with amphibious tanks....and swim them into the lagoon of one of the atolls ( I think it was Ulithi) to attack the truly large US combined 3rd fleet inside of it. They were lauched at night to make the attack. I don't think the IJN planed to get any of their people back but it was a bold move. At least one of the tanks made it both over the reef/ one of the barrier islets and is believed to be responsible (good choice of targets) of causing the obliteration of a ammuntion ship when it's cargo went off. The operation was not know till well after the war and at the time it was presumed the ship suffered a problem with of it's cargo.

That was Günther Prien in U-47 who, in 1939, snuck into the harbor of Scapa Flow and sunk one of the Royal Navy's older battleships, HMS Royal Oak.

And the Italian subs sent in what we'd now call special operations forces, frogmen using torpedoes modified for personnel transport, to infiltrate Alexandria harbor and set up demolition charges that crippled the RN battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant.

And there were other less famous attacks that subs, midget subs, or human torpedoes, launched on ships in harbor.


But I'm not aware of any instance where a submarine attacked the harbor infrastructure itself. As much as it hurts to lose a ships, that's far more survivable than losing shipyards, drydocks, fuel depots, and the other things that are analogous to losing Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland. But most of that infrastructure isn't vulnerable to a submerged WWI/WWII sub - and even if it wasn't suicide to surface near/in a defended harbor subs of that era had very limited ability to attack land targets.

So I'd say subs of that era did something attack ships in harbor, but (to as far as I know) never attacked the a harbor itself.

kzt wrote:That was due to a lack of means, not desire.

The Soviet nuclear torpedoes are the first time a sup has the capability of doing severe damage to a harbor directly.

Indeed kzt. On both accounts. Consider that if capable, subs would have been the better weapons to carry out the strikes. Especially on Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor counted too much on the US navy's mistakes, which were many. And especially since the oil fields obviously weren't on the list.

Brigade XO wrote:There were a couple of times when WW II subs attacked harbors or at least something other than straight shipping. Early in the war a U-boat made it's way into- I believe Scapa Flow- and sank a British capital ship before threading it's way back out.

Well, I think we can surely assume that if subs had the effectiveness of MA stealth or even simply the range and accuracy of the grasers it would have been a done deal. All ships corralled together and off-line is the best scenario for a sub. "It was like shooting ducks in a harbor," is something you proudly tell your grandkids.

Brigade XO wrote:Then there was Japan's use of float-planes off subs to create a little havoc, at least fear, on the US West Coast though they didn't do much in either the way of actual damage or(that any body has turned up) intelligence information.
On the other hand, there was a IJN sub operation to replace the float planes on one or more of the truly large subs with amphibious tanks....and swim them into the lagoon of one of the atolls ( I think it was Ulithi) to attack the truly large US combined 3rd fleet inside of it. They were lauched at night to make the attack. I don't think the IJN planed to get any of their people back but it was a bold move. At least one of the tanks made it both over the reef/ one of the barrier islets and is believed to be responsible (good choice of targets) of causing the obliteration of a ammuntion ship when it's cargo went off. The operation was not know till well after the war and at the time it was presumed the ship suffered a problem with of it's cargo.

Subs were used as LSTs? I am g bsmacked! That is news to me. Thanks Brigade. And welcome back!

Brigade XO wrote:But LD's are not an equivelnt of WW II subs though they are more like a modern SSBN. They are super stealthy. The main weapon system is one that can approch a target -under power/navigaton- without detection till the weapon (the grazer) goes off and which is capable of deploying (we presume since the Shark's did it) multiple hundreds of effectivly ballistic weapons (in the main also functionally undetectable) to strike at "fixed" targets. Fixed in the sence of being orbital facilities in determinable and fixed orbits. That includes not only stations like the three Manticore had but detached warehousing, extraction or processing installations, habitats, dispersed shipyards, training facilities (like orbital (near something) or positioned LAC training centers away from traffic and casual observation.

Agreed. I suppose that we should actually coin that as a scorched space strategy instead of scorched earth. But yes, the LDs still retain the MO of WWII subs and they have added a strategic component with long range strike capability.

Brigade XO wrote:If you also are not worried at all about EE violations, you can just put a few of those ballistic packages into KEW trajectories and punch through the atmosphere to hit "special" target for political (as in wipe out the local political sturcture) or pick off places on the ground that build critical things or perhaps spaceports. After all, every shuttle or heavy cargo lifter and the crews of same that you kill on the ground at the same time as destroying the related facilities is just that much less your adversary has to try and recover with.

It would be a gross understatement to say I wholeheartedly agree.

Brigade XO wrote:The Alighment really hates Beowulf. Very deeply and activly hates Beowulf and all it stands for. ONE of the points in the background reveals with the Alighment is they want to wipe away much of what Beowulf stands for (and for which Detweiler and his vision was reiled enough to leave for Mesa) and they want to REPLACE everything Beowulfan in terms of Medical and Moral ethics and codes with the Alighnment version. We are told that they intend to use the RF to indoctrinate and see every system it brings into it's Faction with variations of the Alighment philosophy and spread that to EVERY other system they interact with. Build it right into the schooling and medical establishments of each system so the population absorbes it and comes to see the Alighment's goals and philosophy as both normal and right.
The Alignment also isn't planning to come out and be the kind of rulers as a Pharaoh or Shah or God Emperor of Dune.....they will be puppet masters. Lots of decided and yet controlled small segments all dancing to the Darius tune but at such a remove that they have no ability to strike back. And go on adjusting the human genome as they see fit.

Indeed. Not sure if I've posted this already; do forgive me if so. But I wonder if the Beowulf Code could die with the death of Beowulf. Beowulf would no longer be able to lobby for the Code's continued importance, against an entity with such an unprecedented philosophy with accompanying new data. Beowulf is the center for genetic R&D. Other than Alison, who else would be left in the galaxy to equal the knowledge of the MA? I suppose leaving Beowulf alive would be more like serving the dish cold when the MA are successful, but eliminating Beowulf would eliminate the MA's most vocal and medically capable adversary.

It is also frightening that the MA surely must have discovered an entirely new plague that can be unleashed upon the galaxy. A much deadlier plague of which only they have the cure. And without Beowulf? ...

cthia wrote:Indeed. Not sure if I've posted this already; do forgive me if so. But I wonder if the Beowulf Code could die with the death of Beowulf. Beowulf would no longer be able to lobby for the Code's continued importance, against an entity with such an unprecedented philosophy with accompanying new data. Beowulf is the center for genetic R&D. Other than Alison, who else would be left in the galaxy to equal the knowledge of the MA? I suppose leaving Beowulf alive would be more like serving the dish cold when the MA are successful, but eliminating Beowulf would eliminate the MA's most vocal and medically capable adversary.

Good point, there's a good chance that even if Beowulf was taken out, it wouldn't be the death of the Code. It's the law in way too many systems, practically all of the non-outlaw ones anyway. So no, I don't think that taking Beowulf out has anything to do with the Code or their medical knowledge, or the capabilities of the Beowulf industry or the BSDF. It's simply personal.

In other words, it serves no strategic advantage. Consequently, they could leave it alive.

It is also frightening that the MA surely must have discovered an entirely new plague that can be unleashed upon the galaxy. A much deadlier plague of which only they have the cure. And without Beowulf? ...

Without Beowulf, there's only the other 11 of the Top Dozen medical centres in the Galaxy. There's no indication at all that they are that far ahead of anyone else. They may contribute disproportionately, but I we don't know if it's 10% of the Top 12 or 50% of the Top 12. Either way, there's plenty left.

Instead, I doubt there's anyone with the knowledge to fight back biological and bioengineered weapons, because no one has had them or used them since the Final War. In this case, Beowulf may not be of any significant help either.