Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Jonathan_S wrote:Undoubtable, like other capital ships in the Honorverse, you'll usually want to use Lenny Dets together in some kind of mutually supporting formation.

You generally don't want to send a single capital ship off to fight an enemy, no mater how much more powerful it is than their individual units. (amusing counterexample is HMS Warspite storming up the Norwegian fiords with only some destroyers escorting her during the 2nd battle of Narvik - blasting German destroyers the second her guns could bear on them. Having her spotter plane up telling her where each target was before she cleared each headland and they could see each other was a major help [g]).


Still, I see one major difference between Lenny Det formations and submarine worfpacks -- how many the navy can afford. Lenny Dets, due to their size and their new technology, are undoubtable significantly more expensive than an SD(P) in terms of material, manhours, or percent of national GPD. Whereas submarines were relatively cheap - Germany could build several wolfpacks worth for less than the cost of a single battleship. Bismarck cost them 200 - 250 million Reichmarks; while a type VII uboat was a mere 4.1 million Reichmarks; so 50 or more uboats (5-6 wolfpacks worth) built for the cost of each BB.

Lenny Dets though are capital ships, not light units like WWI/WWII subs. As mentioned you'll likely use them in some kind of formation - but each formation is a sizable percentage of your entire fleet - so you can't have all that many formations and you'll have to pick and choose were to deploy them.

Whereas a wolfpack were cheap enough Germany could have several deployed in the Atlantic at all times, even allowing for all the other uboats that were in transit, refit/repair, work-up, and leave [remember the rule of thumb that you generally need at least 3 ships in order to keep 1 of them constantly deployed]; plus the uboats assigned to other missions/oceans.

They're not like other capital ships in the Honorverse in many ways. WW2 is far too early for a submarine analogy - spider ships are more like ballistic missile submarines.

I agree that they could be deployed in formations(as the Sharks were forced to) but due to all the unknowns about them, there is still a possibility that each single LD is capable of duplicating the throw weight each Shark squadron had during Oyster Bay and that the original plan had as few as one or two LDs allocated per target in an even wider multisystem strike.

Their stealth is excellent, but those are enormous, very slow ships. Too many of them close together creates a risk that all of them can be exposed by one careless crew.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I am also anticipating the knife-fighting range of an LD to be greatly enhanced. With even more powerful ship mounted grasers.

Also, keep in mind I posited in another thread that the LDs will undoubtedly attack in conjunction with traditional ships of the RF. I doubt the GA will be looking for subs in the water when the RF comes across the wall itching to unveil new toys. And the RF will come in on vectors relayed to them by stealthed ships which will allow them to help the LDs engage.

I don't agree on either count.

I don't anticipate LDs will fight at knife-fighting range at all so increasing their range is not a useful use of their time. If the MAN can do that cost-free, sure, but I seriously doubt it will be cost-free. Nothing in HV is cost-free: everything costs mass or power requirements or surface area. Remember when the GSN began outfitting their capital ships with graser-only armaments, ditching lasers: this meant that they had more total grasers, but fewer total energy weapons. I'd expect that a longer-ranged graser would need a similar trade-off with something else, which I don't see the MAN doing because, as I started with, the LDs shouldn't be in energy range at all.

I certainly can't endorse those statements in an absolute sense. You undoubtedly may be right that LDs shouldn't make it a habit of banging it out at knife-fighting range. But if it finds itself there, it should be able to reply in kind with finality. "Hello. Good-bye."

Their low accel raises the chances that they could be uncovered accidentally. Stumbled upon like rodents upon a spider in the dark of night. Like a spider, a stinger will serve them well. So, if they find themselves unavoidably in knife-fighting range, they will have to do as the saying goes. "Phuck, fight or flee." Since they lack the accel to flee, the longer-ranged higher-powered grasers will keep them from being f*****. Especially since even a single LAC could be detrimental to their health. And since the GA may prefer capture in lieu of destruction. Deploying a longer ranged beast of a graser will increase their survivability overall significantly. Also, I have have always maintained that the LDs can position themselves to control the orbitals. A weapon like that would come in very handy from orbit. Besides, subs are generally capable of a wide range of missions. Holding the range open like the RMN does will suffice for certain ships with certain missions. But if you have the ability to sneak in the back door and hold the Queen and planet hostage and end the war quickly, then your risk is worth the reward. The LDs were designed to be decisive. They shouldn't be tentative when push comes to shove.

Reminds me of the tv series Enterprise which initially deployed without any torpedoes. Well, that was smart.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That also implies I don't see the same tactic as the wolfpack that you described. I do see them working in divisions or squadron-strength and I do see them slotting into positions so their tactics are most effective, but not energy range. A 6-ship squadron can position itself so any vector that an enemy battlegroup takes will make them cross the firing range of their torpedoes, but the actual launching ships would stay several light-minutes behind. It might be standing orders to close to no closer than the time it would take the battle group to overrun it to the hyperlimit.

Certain missions will call for a certain tact. Some will hold the range open while others sneak inside the Queen's boudoir.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The second point is the RFN. They're barely a distraction, their forces are outclassed by half a dozen navies: RMN, GSN, IAN, RHN, BSDF, ESN, MARSN, SLN. And aside from the ESN+MARSN, they're also outnumbered, even if you count the old-style hulls, which you shouldn't. Any RFN forces arriving in a system defended by GA-quality cruisers controlling MDM pods is going to be swatted out of the sky without a sweat. More so once those systems have Apollo-controlled 4-stage missiles.

Sure, they can be a distraction, but the MAlign can't use this technique often, or even more than once or twice. For one, the public of the RF doesn't know they're pawns, so having their spacers consistently die for no apparent gain or, worse, in support of the apparent enemy is not going to sit well. The RF may find itself with a domestic problem if they do. For another, it will invite a visit by the GA, which also removes the RF from the board.

The MAlign can't slip too much technology to the RFN, certainly not sufficiently so to tip the balance. That again invites a visit by the GA before they can build enough. This is also why I said above that the MAlign has the industrial output of a single system (Darius), not a dozen: the RF cannot support the MAN in matériel without getting caught either. So I maintain that the RFN is not a military threat and will not be. The RF exists to exert political influence.

In fact, I think that was true even before The Plan derailed. Even if the SLN had fractured and the Haven sector overrun, there would be plenty of systems and polities left with SLN-level tech. There would also be quite a few warlords with current or last generation SLN SD fleets, or even reactivated mothballs. As David writes, "quantity is a quality of its own" and if you can get 5:1 numerical superiority, the fact that the enemy has something slightly better than an SLN Vega isn't going to suffice.

The MAlign has never strategised in terms of military might.

You certainly have a point that the RF can't tip their hand. But I wasn't speaking in terms of the MA sharing tech with the RF, but rather the RF loaning ships to the MA to do as they please. Will it be known where the ships -- or personnel if they use them -- came from?

A screen of sorts?

One thing that bothers me is the fact that LDs don't have screens. I suppose that stealth negates the need. But what will the Sharks be used for during an all out war? If at least one Shark shadows an LD the Shark can leak emissions and lead the posse away from the LD if it is detected. It can sacrifice itself.

Even if only one Shark per six-pack.

cthia wrote:Deploying a longer ranged beast of a graser will increase their survivability overall significantly. Also, I have have always maintained that the LDs can position themselves to control the orbitals. A weapon like that would come in very handy from orbit.

Why would a longer ranged more powerful graser be useful from orbit?

The current grasers already have the problem that atmospheric effects prevent them from being pinpoint weapons; but if you want to bathe a city in atmospheric plasma a warship's graser will do that job just fine. Adding more power just cooks slightly more of the suburbs per shot - which doesn't seem a significant advantage.

And against targets without sidewalls grasers can already do so from twice the distance of the moon (a million km). So from anything you'd consider a plausible orbit the current grasers can already deliver plenty of anti-surface firepower (albeit area effect firepower).


I can see where longer ranged grasers might be useful in ambushing warships or attacking forts; but I'm not seeing any significant benefit in orbital attacks.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Deploying a longer ranged beast of a graser will increase their survivability overall significantly. Also, I have have always maintained that the LDs can position themselves to control the orbitals. A weapon like that would come in very handy from orbit.

Why would a longer ranged more powerful graser be useful from orbit?

The current grasers already have the problem that atmospheric effects prevent them from being pinpoint weapons; but if you want to bathe a city in atmospheric plasma a warship's graser will do that job just fine. Adding more power just cooks slightly more of the suburbs per shot - which doesn't seem a significant advantage.

And against targets without sidewalls grasers can already do so from twice the distance of the moon (a million km). So from anything you'd consider a plausible orbit the current grasers can already deliver plenty of anti-surface firepower (albeit area effect firepower).


I can see where longer ranged grasers might be useful in ambushing warships or attacking forts; but I'm not seeing any significant benefit in orbital attacks.

Not for ground attacks, but for defensive purposes once they set up housekeeping in orbit. I am assuming the GA will have to come close to detect them, and to engage them if they do manage to detect them. The GA will not be able to use a missile engagement firing at an incompletely localized enemy with the backdrop of the planet. So it will have to be an energy engagement. If the MA has the longer reach in an energy engagement, what then?

Plus, it will assist in destroying any ships sitting in orbit with their wedges down in their initial run in to the planet. Like bynging sitting ducks in a shooting gallery.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Why would a longer ranged more powerful graser be useful from orbit?

The current grasers already have the problem that atmospheric effects prevent them from being pinpoint weapons; but if you want to bathe a city in atmospheric plasma a warship's graser will do that job just fine. Adding more power just cooks slightly more of the suburbs per shot - which doesn't seem a significant advantage.

And against targets without sidewalls grasers can already do so from twice the distance of the moon (a million km). So from anything you'd consider a plausible orbit the current grasers can already deliver plenty of anti-surface firepower (albeit area effect firepower).


I can see where longer ranged grasers might be useful in ambushing warships or attacking forts; but I'm not seeing any significant benefit in orbital attacks.

Not for ground attacks, but for defensive purposes once they set up housekeeping in orbit. I am assuming the GA will have to come close to detect them, and to engage them if they do manage to detect them. The GA will not be able to use a missile engagement firing at an incompletely localized enemy with the backdrop of the planet. So it will have to be an energy engagement. If the MA has the longer reach in an energy engagement, what then?

Plus, it will assist in destroying any ships sitting in orbit with their wedges down in their initial run in to the planet. Like bynging sitting ducks in a shooting gallery.

Ah. Thanks for explaining.

cthia wrote:I certainly can't endorse those statements in an absolute sense. You undoubtedly may be right that LDs shouldn't make it a habit of banging it out at knife-fighting range. But if it finds itself there, it should be able to reply in kind with finality. "Hello. Good-bye."

But is that worth a 50% bigger graser so it can reach 15% further? Remember the big problem with long-range directed energy weapons is that they fly in a straight line. 15% more in 1 million km is an extra second round-trip between sensing and beam impacting. A GA ship manoeuvring at 600 gravities has 7.5 seconds to change position by 165 km. So to hit an enemy further out, one needs not only more power, but also more beams to saturate the possible positions and therefore increase the probability of a hit.

I suppose that if there's any ship that can have Big F'ing Grasers in sufficient quantity, it would be the LD.

Their low accel raises the chances that they could be uncovered accidentally. Stumbled upon like rodents upon a spider in the dark of night. Like a spider, a stinger will serve them well. So, if they find themselves unavoidably in knife-fighting range, they will have to do as the saying goes. "Phuck, fight or flee." Since they lack the accel to flee, the longer-ranged higher-powered grasers will keep them from being f*****. Especially since even a single LAC could be detrimental to their health. And since the GA may prefer capture in lieu of destruction. Deploying a longer ranged beast of a graser will increase their survivability overall significantly. Also, I have have always maintained that the LDs can position themselves to control the orbitals. A weapon like that would come in very handy from orbit. Besides, subs are generally capable of a wide range of missions. Holding the range open like the RMN does will suffice for certain ships with certain missions. But if you have the ability to sneak in the back door and hold the Queen and planet hostage and end the war quickly, then your risk is worth the reward. The LDs were designed to be decisive. They shouldn't be tentative when push comes to shove.

I didn't say they shouldn't have any close-range armaments at all. I'm saying that there's a trade-off: is it worth extending the range by 15%? Or should they focus on having similar-ranged grasers in much greater quantity instead?

All this rests on questions we can't answer.

By the way, you may be right about a high-risk and high-reward operation. But the math doesn't add up for me: if that's the objective, we'd see a purpose-built fleet of ships and for all appearances that's not what the LDs are.

Reminds me of the tv series Enterprise which initially deployed without any torpedoes. Well, that was smart.

They deployed like that because the photon torpedo hadn't yet been invented in Seasons 1 and 2. They got them for the first time on the Season 2 finale ("The Expanse") and when the Klingons were subject to them, they exclaimed "anti-matter warhead!"

By the way, where are the HV anti-matter warheads? They definitely have the energy generation capacity to make anti-matter in sufficient scale. Though likely they're just not worth it, not after the boom and burn mode nuclear missiles went the way of the dodo.

You certainly have a point that the RF can't tip their hand. But I wasn't speaking in terms of the MA sharing tech with the RF, but rather the RF loaning ships to the MA to do as they please. Will it be known where the ships -- or personnel if they use them -- came from?

What ships? The Mannerheim Navy was using, at best, SLN-level tech. Like Beowulf Defence Force, all those ships are now obsolete. They are not useful even as distraction in a MAN operation against the GA, q.v. Operation Fabius attack on Beowulf. They are targets.

I said that the SLN will build SD(P)s and that has to be true for the RFN too. So in a few years' time, we'll see those rolling off the yards. The problem here is that for the next 10 years or so, every single SD(P) production will be known to the GA intelligence agencies. There will be two sources of ships for the RFN: buying from Technodyne or building on owned shipyards. The GA will know the serial numbers for all of the ones built by Technodyne, so they can't accidentally fall into the MAN hands. If the RFN lends them and they get captured, the attention comes back again to the RF.

As for own shipyards, I expect that the RF has some and that they will swiftly pull ahead of TIY. That is to be expected of anyone with tech capability and good education, so the MAlign can feed them information without compromising the RF. But that's exactly the type of shipyard that the GA intel will be keeping an eye on, so the RF can't build for the MAN. And neither the reverse, for that matter.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But is that worth a 50% bigger graser so it can reach 15% further? Remember the big problem with long-range directed energy weapons is that they fly in a straight line. 15% more in 1 million km is an extra second round-trip between sensing and beam impacting. A GA ship manoeuvring at 600 gravities has 7.5 seconds to change position by 165 km. So to hit an enemy further out, one needs not only more power, but also more beams to saturate the possible positions and therefore increase the probability of a hit.

I suppose that if there's any ship that can have Big F'ing Grasers in sufficient quantity, it would be the LD.

Yes, problems will have to be solved first for certain. We went over this in the ? thread, pp. 75-76. I didn't believe it would be a problem if they are managing to hit the broad side of a barn at its max range now. Anyway, I never got a chance to ask. Didn't TWTSNBN operate at even longer ranges?

At any rate, the massive number crunching behemoth that I posited will be aboard the LDs can solve the problem. The behemoth can certainly coordinate the collective graser fire of the entire Wolfpack from orbit. Problem solved.

cthia wrote:Yes, problems will have to be solved first for certain. We went over this in the ? thread, pp. 75-76. I didn't believe it would be a problem if they are managing to hit the broad side of a barn at its max range now. Anyway, I never got a chance to ask. Didn't TWTSNBN operate at even longer ranges?

No, it was about a light-second, which placed the ship using it well within the energy range of its target. This, more than anything else, is what killed TWTSNBN.

[quoteAt any rate, the massive number crunching behemoth that I posited will be aboard the LDs can solve the problem. The behemoth can certainly coordinate the collective graser fire of the entire Wolfpack from orbit. Problem solved.[/quote]

You can't solve the number-crunching problem if the problem is inherently random. By its very definition, it can't be predicted.

You can only fire more weapons in hope that something will hit. That argues for more weapons rather than longer range.

I understand what you're trying to say: in order to hold the planet, the LD has to hit the forces advancing upon it before they reach it. The problem is that holding a planet means being in close proximity to it, which limits the LD's own manoeuvres. Certain evasions simply aren't possible, unless they want to hit the atmosphere or splash on the planet. Meanwhile, the recovery forces can throw dozens of cruisers, a hundred DD, and a thousand LAC. Even a full wolfpack of LDs with an enormous quantity of grasers can't take out that many ships before some of them close to their energy range, regardless of whether the range is 15% or more or not. The relief force will come on a high-speed pass to minimise the time it is within the LDs' range but the LDs aren't in theirs.

No, either the presence of the LDs in orbit compels the defenders to surrender (Deneb Acords or not!) or they will have to have cleared the system first. They can't hold a planet against a relief force that large.

Not by themselves, at least. If they bring freighters that disgorge a million missile pods, that's another story. That's why a capital ship, even a squadron thereof, has escorts.

Another thing: if the MAlign takes a planet, it has to occupy it with somewhat decency. If they begin massacring the population, that removes the incentive for anyone else to surrender. Any relief forces that find LDs in orbit will take the risk of hitting the planet rather than leave those LDs there.

That's why I don't think the LDs will try to hold a planet for occupation. The MAlign does not have the forces for that. At best, they can hold it hostage, but again there's a limit on how much you can mutilate your hostage. Once that Pandora's Box is opened, it can't be unopened either.