Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Jonathan_S wrote:Or what happens if a LAC clips the LD with it's wedge (which is dozens of KMs wide) neither spider drive nor bubble sidewall should offer any protection from a wedge strike of even a small ship (though the bubble wall will protect from wedge strikes of missiles).

Strictly speaking, we don't know if the spider can actually disable a wedge. We do know that the only thing that can defend against a wedge is a stronger wedge. Since the spider is still a gravitic technology, it's possible at short ranges its immense power is equivalent of an oversized wedge. I don't think it's likely, though.

Either way, it's not a likely scenario. A LAC that is about to ram is a LAC that is disabled, probably because it lost its wedge in the first place. It's so damaged that it can't even fire its graser. And besides, it wouldn't be manoeuvring, so the LD can dodge it. It may be slow compared to wedge ships, but it can move its entire length (2 km?) at 150 gravities in 1.6 seconds.

But you raise an interesting tactical scenario: can a LAC (or a LAC wing, for that matter) use the barricade offensively against a wedgeless target? That is, intentionally "ram" with the knowledge that it will survive the collision unscathed? We don't exactly know how ships can change their acceleration vector using impellers: do they need to change their attitude so the wedge's vector changes? If that's the case, then a LAC going belly first against a target isn't accelerating towards the target. That's probably the case, since Harkness conceived the barricade against coasting missiles between wedge activations.

But the LAC can probably still accelerate on any direction perpendicular to its direction of motion (so long as the bowwall isn't on), so the LD can't evade. And it can't run from a LAC either, so the LAC only has to achieve sufficient relative velocity before it enters energy range. At that point, the collision is unavoidable.

The defence against this is to simply destroy the LACs before they impact. I wouldn't fire graser torpedoes against them; regular missiles will do fine. CMs even, for the last part of the flight. So long as that happens 1.5 seconds from collision, the LD has time to evade the debris. What is destroyed in that that gauntlet can also be vaporised into smaller bits with energy weapons.

Sure, this battle will be seen all across the system. But so long as the next cluster of enemy ships is sufficiently far, the LD can vanish again into stealth (if the stealth isn't compromised).

OTOH we're told a a ship cannot have a full bow and full stern wall active at once. You can have a full bow wall + a stern buckler (or the other way round) at the expense of being unable to use the wedge to accelerate or turn. Or you could have just a buckler up at each end and still have full use of the wedge.

You can have both, but if you do then you're not accelerating. So a LAC with all of them active further than 1.5 seconds away can be evaded. Either way, those aren't powerful enough to withstand full shipkiller missiles or dozens of CMs at short range.

Still, a LAC could accelerate towards an identified LD then pivot and duck behind its wedge as it approached energy range - then the LD would have to kill it with short range missile or torp fire, as the broadside energy mounts wouldn't have an angle around the wedge at the LAC. And the rest of the LACs in the squadron would presumably be helping beat back any missiles the LD launched. (And at close range missiles are too slow to be difficult targets; even given their high acceleration)

If they can pinpoint where the LD is, they would be firing their missiles from outside the LD's energy and CM range, not barricading into it.

Oops, correction on evasion time. I calculated that the LD (assumed to be 2 km long) can move its full length in 1.65 seconds and that would be sufficient to evade. That's not correct: it must move one full length plus half the width of the wedge that is coming at it. So if an LAC wedge is 24 km wide, the LD must shift by 14 km and that takes 4.36 seconds at 150 gravities. I suppose that if there's any reason to use emergency acceleration, this is it, so at 250 gravities it would take 3.3 seconds.

It can probably also shorten the time by pitching. 3.3 seconds probably doesn't suffice for the full manoeuvre, since it has to stop the pitch or risk colliding with the trailing wedge after the leading one is past. A 45° pitch reduces the exposed length to 1/sqrt(2) (sin(45°)) -- from 2 km to 1.41 km.

Assuming that the LD can accelerate in any direction, not just forwards and backwards.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH we're told a a ship cannot have a full bow and full stern wall active at once. You can have a full bow wall + a stern buckler (or the other way round) at the expense of being unable to use the wedge to accelerate or turn. Or you could have just a buckler up at each end and still have full use of the wedge.

You can have both, but if you do then you're not accelerating. So a LAC with all of them active further than 1.5 seconds away can be evaded. Either way, those aren't powerful enough to withstand full shipkiller missiles or dozens of CMs at short range.

Actually no - it's pretty clear having even one end closed prevents acceleration and having two fully closed is impossible.

Echoes of Honor - Ch. 3 wrote:"As we all know, it's impossible to close the bow or stern aspect of an impeller wedge with a sidewall, right?" Heads nodded once again.
[...]
"Because cutting off the stress bands' n-space pocket with a closed wedge prevents you from accelerating, decelerating, or using the wedge to change heading, Ma'am," he replied. "If you want the math—?"
"No, that's all right, Lieutenant," she said. "But suppose you don't want to accelerate or decelerate? Couldn't you generate a 'bow' sidewall then?"
"Well, yes, Ma'am, I suppose you could.

Close either aspect and you can't use the wedge to accelerate or maneuver.

Ashes of Victory - Ch. 24 wrote:BuShips had used the last scraps of the internal volume freed by removing the graser to shoehorn in an additional sidewall generator. Just as powerful as the new "bow-wall" that closed off and protected the front of a Shrike's wedge as it bored into energy range, the Ferret's "sternwall" closed off the rear of the wedge. Power requirements and the physics of the wedge meant only one aspect, bow or stern, could be closed at any given moment

Physics of the wedge prevents you closing both bow and stern aspect simultaneously.

I'm having trouble finding a quote stating that you can run the buckler on one end while a full wall on the other - or for that matter even that you can run bucklers simultaneously on both ends. That may have come out of forum discussions. But I'm pretty sure those are both possible since the buckler doesn't cut the stress bands like the full bow wall or sternwall does.

Jonathan_S wrote:
You do know what happens if an LAC rams an LD at a fraction of the speed of light relative, right? The LD will not like it. The LD crew will hope that the LAC only hits one of the extremities and takes out the Warshawski sails. If it hits midway, the ship may break in two. And that's if it doesn't cause a cascade failure of the reactors.

Anyway, LACs operate in squadrons during battle, no? If so, then the same hinky geometry that enabled barricade to work should also work for the MA with their slower 3-second firing gtorps going off near the front of a tightly packed MA launch. What's good for the MA is good for the MA. Get it? Manticoran Alliance. Mesan Alliance?

Gee this is a tough crowd.

[

And they will do this while being shot at with 8 meter grasers how? Can you remember how many SD’s the shrikes killed in BoM?

Shrikes are indeed some nasty boogers aren't they?

However . . .

Spiders cast Web

The Wolfpack tactic was very effective. U-boats would form up in some sort of tactical pattern, relaying enemy position to each other. Initially, I thought a pack of five LDs would be sufficient for attack and defense. One in the middle of the formation and a pair on either side stacked appropriately. Akin to the formation Honor arranged to afford a shot at each enemy ship regardless of its vector.

However, history tells of Wolfpacks consisting of 8 to 20 subs. So, if an LD is detected and a LAC gives chase, the LAC had better detect the others as well. The baggage I carry with me on this one is many. In Top Gun, Maverick told Merlin, "Bring her back to me buddy, help me to engage." IOW, the LAC, or other ships for that matter, could be charging headlong into a web of hurt. In the first years of the war, the German Rudeltaktik was very successful. As I fear likewise the maiden voyages of the LDs will be. This is why I think the LDs will not hold back in the opening phase allowing the GA time to "get back on balance," or worse, solicit Honor out of retirement.

BTW, sonar was useless against surface ships, and U-boat commanders preferred surface attacks. How will David apply this analogue, if at all.

There were setbacks suffered by the U-boats. But mostly when positioning, i.e., while they were enroute to rendezvous points. But once they attacked, the attacks were very successful. I suppose the LD will have the same problem, as many of you have pointed out, being they are much slower than the enemy. However, if a pack is not detected before it slots into position, the game is afoot.

One problem I anticipate for the LDs as with the U-boats is the danger of communication. Radio silence was practiced by the U-boats until right before significant course changes and attack. This communication was sometimes intercepted. It is interesting if and how David will deal with this.

On the other foot is the problems experienced by the prey itself. The convoys oftentimes were maneuvering blind, and hot water turned into hotter water. Any LAC maneuver could take them out of the frying pan and into the fire.

One invisible foe is a problem.
Two invisible foe is a headache.
Three invisible foe is a nightmare.
Four invisible foe is a friggin disaster.
Eight or more in a pack is a change of government.

I am also anticipating the knife-fighting range of an LD to be greatly enhanced. With even more powerful ship mounted grasers.

Also, keep in mind I posited in another thread that the LDs will undoubtedly attack in conjunction with traditional ships of the RF. I doubt the GA will be looking for subs in the water when the RF comes across the wall itching to unveil new toys. And the RF will come in on vectors relayed to them by stealthed ships which will allow them to help the LDs engage.

"That's right," says the Spider to the fly. "You just keep right on coming."

cthia wrote:BTW, sonar was useless against surface ships, and U-boat commanders preferred surface attacks. How will David apply this analogue, if at all.

Depends on the sonar. Active sonar tended not to be useful against surface ships in WWII - especially from other surface ships - but passive sonar could and did work for that.

The Kriegsmarine specifically developed and used “Gruppenhorchgerät” (GHG) [group listening device] - a passive sonar hydrophone array running along the sides of the hull - as passive protection on their capital ships (large cruisers and battleships) to listen for torpedoes or approaching enemy warships.

IIRC during the failed breakout of the Bismarck one or the other of the German ships at various times detected the closing RN forces.


U-Boats also carried a version of this GHG. And I know at least the US fleet subs also carried passive hydrophones which could be used to listen to the activity of nearby surface ships. I assume everybody's subs by WWII had hydrophones of some level of sensitivity that could be used for this.


Still - that historical sonar info tells us nothing about whether the Honorverse will develop some sonar equivalent to detect spider ships.

cthia wrote:Shrikes are indeed some nasty boogers aren't they?

However . . .

Spiders cast Web

The Wolfpack tactic was very effective. U-boats would form up in some sort of tactical pattern, relaying enemy position to each other. Initially, I thought a pack of five LDs would be sufficient for attack and defense. One in the middle of the formation and a pair on either side stacked appropriately. Akin to the formation Honor arranged to afford a shot at each enemy ship regardless of its vector.

However, history tells of Wolfpacks consisting of 8 to 20 subs. So, if an LD is detected and a LAC gives chase, the LAC had better detect the others as well. The baggage I carry with me on this one is many. In Top Gun, Maverick told Merlin, "Bring her back to me buddy, help me to engage." IOW, the LAC, or other ships for that matter, could be charging headlong into a web of hurt. In the first years of the war, the German Rudeltaktik was very successful. As I fear likewise the maiden voyages of the LDs will be. This is why I think the LDs will not hold back in the opening phase allowing the GA time to "get back on balance," or worse, solicit Honor out of retirement.

Undoubtable, like other capital ships in the Honorverse, you'll usually want to use Lenny Dets together in some kind of mutually supporting formation.

You generally don't want to send a single capital ship off to fight an enemy, no mater how much more powerful it is than their individual units. (amusing counterexample is HMS Warspite storming up the Norwegian fiords with only some destroyers escorting her during the 2nd battle of Narvik - blasting German destroyers the second her guns could bear on them. Having her spotter plane up telling her where each target was before she cleared each headland and they could see each other was a major help [g]).


Still, I see one major difference between Lenny Det formations and submarine worfpacks -- how many the navy can afford. Lenny Dets, due to their size and their new technology, are undoubtable significantly more expensive than an SD(P) in terms of material, manhours, or percent of national GPD. Whereas submarines were relatively cheap - Germany could build several wolfpacks worth for less than the cost of a single battleship. Bismarck cost them 200 - 250 million Reichmarks; while a type VII uboat was a mere 4.1 million Reichmarks; so 50 or more uboats (5-6 wolfpacks worth) built for the cost of each BB.

Lenny Dets though are capital ships, not light units like WWI/WWII subs. As mentioned you'll likely use them in some kind of formation - but each formation is a sizable percentage of your entire fleet - so you can't have all that many formations and you'll have to pick and choose were to deploy them.

Whereas a wolfpack were cheap enough Germany could have several deployed in the Atlantic at all times, even allowing for all the other uboats that were in transit, refit/repair, work-up, and leave [remember the rule of thumb that you generally need at least 3 ships in order to keep 1 of them constantly deployed]; plus the uboats assigned to other missions/oceans.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Ashes of Victory - Ch. 24 wrote:BuShips had used the last scraps of the internal volume freed by removing the graser to shoehorn in an additional sidewall generator. Just as powerful as the new "bow-wall" that closed off and protected the front of a Shrike's wedge as it bored into energy range, the Ferret's "sternwall" closed off the rear of the wedge. Power requirements and the physics of the wedge meant only one aspect, bow or stern, could be closed at any given moment

Physics of the wedge prevents you closing both bow and stern aspect simultaneously.

You've just quoted that power requirements were (part of) the deal-breaking. The previous passage from EoH was when they were trying to unlearn what everyone thought they knew, so it doesn't count for much. So I stand by my saying that you could have both ends closed, if you had enough power, so long as you didn't mind coasting in.

But either way, you're still right that the LACs don't have enough power generation to do that, even if it is possible. They're not going to survive the short-range gauntlet to precisely ram an enemy ship.

cthia wrote:I am also anticipating the knife-fighting range of an LD to be greatly enhanced. With even more powerful ship mounted grasers.

Also, keep in mind I posited in another thread that the LDs will undoubtedly attack in conjunction with traditional ships of the RF. I doubt the GA will be looking for subs in the water when the RF comes across the wall itching to unveil new toys. And the RF will come in on vectors relayed to them by stealthed ships which will allow them to help the LDs engage.

I don't agree on either count.

I don't anticipate LDs will fight at knife-fighting range at all so increasing their range is not a useful use of their time. If the MAN can do that cost-free, sure, but I seriously doubt it will be cost-free. Nothing in HV is cost-free: everything costs mass or power requirements or surface area. Remember when the GSN began outfitting their capital ships with graser-only armaments, ditching lasers: this meant that they had more total grasers, but fewer total energy weapons. I'd expect that a longer-ranged graser would need a similar trade-off with something else, which I don't see the MAN doing because, as I started with, the LDs shouldn't be in energy range at all.

That also implies I don't see the same tactic as the wolfpack that you described. I do see them working in divisions or squadron-strength and I do see them slotting into positions so their tactics are most effective, but not energy range. A 6-ship squadron can position itself so any vector that an enemy battlegroup takes will make them cross the firing range of their torpedoes, but the actual launching ships would stay several light-minutes behind. It might be standing orders to close to no closer than the time it would take the battle group to overrun it to the hyperlimit.



The second point is the RFN. They're barely a distraction, their forces are outclassed by half a dozen navies: RMN, GSN, IAN, RHN, BSDF, ESN, MARSN, SLN. And aside from the ESN+MARSN, they're also outnumbered, even if you count the old-style hulls, which you shouldn't. Any RFN forces arriving in a system defended by GA-quality cruisers controlling MDM pods is going to be swatted out of the sky without a sweat. More so once those systems have Apollo-controlled 4-stage missiles.

Sure, they can be a distraction, but the MAlign can't use this technique often, or even more than once or twice. For one, the public of the RF doesn't know they're pawns, so having their spacers consistently die for no apparent gain or, worse, in support of the apparent enemy is not going to sit well. The RF may find itself with a domestic problem if they do. For another, it will invite a visit by the GA, which also removes the RF from the board.

The MAlign can't slip too much technology to the RFN, certainly not sufficiently so to tip the balance. That again invites a visit by the GA before they can build enough. This is also why I said above that the MAlign has the industrial output of a single system (Darius), not a dozen: the RF cannot support the MAN in matériel without getting caught either. So I maintain that the RFN is not a military threat and will not be. The RF exists to exert political influence.

In fact, I think that was true even before The Plan derailed. Even if the SLN had fractured and the Haven sector overrun, there would be plenty of systems and polities left with SLN-level tech. There would also be quite a few warlords with current or last generation SLN SD fleets, or even reactivated mothballs. As David writes, "quantity is a quality of its own" and if you can get 5:1 numerical superiority, the fact that the enemy has something slightly better than an SLN Vega isn't going to suffice.

The MAlign has never strategised in terms of military might.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Shrikes are indeed some nasty boogers aren't they?

However . . .

Spiders cast Web

The Wolfpack tactic was very effective. U-boats would form up in some sort of tactical pattern, relaying enemy position to each other. Initially, I thought a pack of five LDs would be sufficient for attack and defense. One in the middle of the formation and a pair on either side stacked appropriately. Akin to the formation Honor arranged to afford a shot at each enemy ship regardless of its vector.

However, history tells of Wolfpacks consisting of 8 to 20 subs. So, if an LD is detected and a LAC gives chase, the LAC had better detect the others as well. The baggage I carry with me on this one is many. In Top Gun, Maverick told Merlin, "Bring her back to me buddy, help me to engage." IOW, the LAC, or other ships for that matter, could be charging headlong into a web of hurt. In the first years of the war, the German Rudeltaktik was very successful. As I fear likewise the maiden voyages of the LDs will be. This is why I think the LDs will not hold back in the opening phase allowing the GA time to "get back on balance," or worse, solicit Honor out of retirement.

Undoubtable, like other capital ships in the Honorverse, you'll usually want to use Lenny Dets together in some kind of mutually supporting formation.

You generally don't want to send a single capital ship off to fight an enemy, no mater how much more powerful it is than their individual units. (amusing counterexample is HMS Warspite storming up the Norwegian fiords with only some destroyers escorting her during the 2nd battle of Narvik - blasting German destroyers the second her guns could bear on them. Having her spotter plane up telling her where each target was before she cleared each headland and they could see each other was a major help [g]).


Still, I see one major difference between Lenny Det formations and submarine worfpacks -- how many the navy can afford. Lenny Dets, due to their size and their new technology, are undoubtable significantly more expensive than an SD(P) in terms of material, manhours, or percent of national GPD. Whereas submarines were relatively cheap - Germany could build several wolfpacks worth for less than the cost of a single battleship. Bismarck cost them 200 - 250 million Reichmarks; while a type VII uboat was a mere 4.1 million Reichmarks; so 50 or more uboats (5-6 wolfpacks worth) built for the cost of each BB.

Lenny Dets though are capital ships, not light units like WWI/WWII subs. As mentioned you'll likely use them in some kind of formation - but each formation is a sizable percentage of your entire fleet - so you can't have all that many formations and you'll have to pick and choose were to deploy them.

Whereas a wolfpack were cheap enough Germany could have several deployed in the Atlantic at all times, even allowing for all the other uboats that were in transit, refit/repair, work-up, and leave [remember the rule of thumb that you generally need at least 3 ships in order to keep 1 of them constantly deployed]; plus the uboats assigned to other missions/oceans.

Interesting points. And true. Yet, the equalizer is as you said, the LDs are capital ships. And their ability to win a war outright sets them apart from the efficacy of subs. At the time, subs couldn't win a war by controlling the orbitals or the sea ports. And they didn't have the ability to destroy entire fleets which are caught with their pants down. Subs also never got anywhere near to representing over 85+ % (my own estimate) of its navy's entire offensive power. Those are very significant differences. So, their high cost -- even in the face of their low numbers -- is worth the risk and the expense in favor of the potential payoff.

With 70 - 100 LDs operating in wolfpacks of 6 yields up to 16 packs of war winning heavy metal. I suppose subs could have won a war by attrition, IF all had gone well. But LDs can win a war by force.