The end of American democracy?

n7axw wrote:No. I haven't been on Baens... not that I've been deliberately avoiding them. I don't do right wing web sites... bad for my blood pressure.

I am up watching certification process. I have been worried about today for weeks. So I am going to stay up for the rest of the state roll call... and see Joe Biden formally acknowledged as president-elect. All that will be left will be inaugration...

Don

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I'm at the office, can't stream the live feed since most people here work remotely and they have clamped down on streaming to conserve bandwidth.

It seems there are only 7 republicans pandering to the Trump-mob in the hopes of gaining votes for the next election-cycle, so at this point they only delay the inevitable while looking like assholes to a sane person.

The reactions outside of the USA speaks volumes, the images from Capitol Hill and the mob forcing their way in have most people comparing the USA to some failed banana republic.

What's worse, the USA has lost ALL credibility at this point, and China is happily rubbing it in everywhere it can. It will take decades for the USA mitigate the damage it has done to it's international reputation. It's something Biden won't be able to fix during his presidential period for the simple reason no-one will trust the USA until it is shown that people like Trump won't be elected again in the future.

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:No. I haven't been on Baens... not that I've been deliberately avoiding them. I don't do right wing web sites... bad for my blood pressure.

I am up watching certification process. I have been worried about today for weeks. So I am going to stay up for the rest of the state roll call... and see Joe Biden formally acknowledged as president-elect. All that will be left will be inaugration...

Don

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I'm at the office, can't stream the live feed since most people here work remotely and they have clamped down on streaming to conserve bandwidth.

It seems there are only 7 republicans pandering to the Trump-mob in the hopes of gaining votes for the next election-cycle, so at this point they only delay the inevitable while looking like assholes to a sane person.

The reactions outside of the USA speaks volumes, the images from Capitol Hill and the mob forcing their way in have most people comparing the USA to some failed banana republic.

What's worse, the USA has lost ALL credibility at this point, and China is happily rubbing it in everywhere it can. It will take decades for the USA mitigate the damage it has done to it's international reputation. It's something Biden won't be able to fix during his presidential period for the simple reason no-one will trust the USA until it is shown that people like Trump won't be elected again in the future.

Actually the 7 you are referring to are senators. When the House voted, it was 133 in support of Trump.

Yes, I agree with the rest of your post. After Jan. 20, the grown ups will be back in charge and the process of reconciliation and repair can begin. It appears that the Republican Party might split, a process that could keep them from the levers of power for a long time.

Personally, while I agree with you about the international side, I am far more concerned with us not getting another Trump than you are. We definitely don't need another dictator on the make...

The deed is done. Joe Biden is now the president elect officially until his inauguration at witch time his term begins. It is 3 am and the party is over. I am going to bed.

Don

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Personally, I love one of the photographic bits of proof for Antifa being the people who broke into the Capitol building.

A picture of Jake Angeli. Aka the QAnon Shamen.

Hello,

the AntiFa?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... washington
The one in the middle is Jon Schaffer of the the metal band 'Iced Earth'. He is a known right wing and racist.


About security - here is a comparison to the peaceful protests:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... sts-photos

“…that dacha on the shores of the Black Sea, waiting for the B.O.M., might be looking pretty good, come January 21st!”
Who knows, maybe he could trade golf swings with Ed Snowden!

I am curious about the contributing factors to the Senate Attack. Here are the ones that I believe have a large impact on the situation, although as a Brit, my viewpoint is biased and incomplete.

1) Education.
The American Education System has a (mostly undeserved) reputation as being basic numeracy, literacy and Creationism.
Uneducated people are (relatively) easy to manipulate as they do not have the knowledge base that allows them to spot logical fallacies and misrepresentations, making them easy prey for conspiracy theorists and other such people.

2) Media Spotlighting.
American Media companies have a tendency to ally with a political party or belief system (Yes, we have that problem in the UK with the BBC being noticeably leftist, but there are regulations in place to make them at least pretend to be neutral). With a large minority of the population relying on a single Media company for the main portion of their news, they can find themselves sliding towards extreme left/right views without noticing the process (Hot Frog problem).

3) Lack of trust in Media.
Several of the Media companies have pulled their focus so tight on certain topics that they are seen as being more interested in stating opinions than reporting the news. As such, other news sources (both real and fake) become more popular.

4) Lockdown.
America is built on individualism and freedom to the point that it can seem comical to outsiders. The multiple lockdowns have gone against this foundation and the resulting disconnect has caused quite a bit of anger.

5) Law Enforcement.
The American Law Enforcement has come under a great deal of criticism over the last year+, especially over events such as the George Floyd death and abuse of no-knock warrants. This has led to people being more confrontational (which in turn leads to more incidents etc) as well as events such as the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone (a no-police area which went rather... sideways on the founders). The call of "Defund the Police", while very memorable, seems to be rather short-sighted. "Train the Police in de-escalation!" would, in my opinion, have been a better stance.

6) Trump.
Arrogant, egotistical, ignorant and undermined by many who should have supported him, including the American military (the Chiefs of Staff lied to him about the numbers of soldiers overseas so that they could keep the missions in question going). He did not know how to play the political game and the career politicians did not know how to play him. This led to some spectacular mis-steps on both sides as one side was playing poker and the other was playing marbles (from a metaphorical viewpoint, anyway).

Any of these factors could have caused problems on their own, but all coming together? Spike wave time and the ducks have been launched...
Now we just have to see where they land.

What other factors have contributed?

Trump's psyche can't accept that people do not like him, I would expect that is a contributing factor to why he is so antagonistic.

Michael Everett wrote:3) Lack of trust in Media.
Several of the Media companies have pulled their focus so tight on certain topics that they are seen as being more interested in stating opinions than reporting the news. As such, other news sources (both real and fake) become more popular.

It certainly doesn't help that someone keeps telling his supporters that the media is all fake and biased.

It also doesn't help that the media in the US is so scared of being seen as biased that they feel compelled to treat the sitting US President with a lot more deference than they would treat, say, a TV show host.

4) Lockdown.
America is built on individualism and freedom to the point that it can seem comical to outsiders. The multiple lockdowns have gone against this foundation and the resulting disconnect has caused quite a bit of anger.

This is .... not wrong, exactly, but a massive oversimplification.
Trump politicized the various low-effort anti-covid measures (such as social distancing and mask wearing) to a degree that no other world leader has. He turned a very straightforward public health guideline into a shibboleth separating his supporters from "The Left".

5) Law Enforcement.
The American Law Enforcement has come under a great deal of criticism over the last year+, especially over events such as the George Floyd death and abuse of no-knock warrants. This has led to people being more confrontational (which in turn leads to more incidents etc) as well as events such as the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone (a no-police area which went rather... sideways on the founders). The call of "Defund the Police", while very memorable, seems to be rather short-sighted. "Train the Police in de-escalation!" would, in my opinion, have been a better stance.

This is utterly laughable. As the storming of the Capitol showed, the police is perfectly capable of restraint and deescalation when they choose to do so. There's a marked difference between police reactions to the various BLM protests, or other, smaller scale protests in the Capitol itself to what happened on January 6th. When I saw footage of police actively helping the insurrectionists, when I saw the whole situation not become a bloodbath, I figured that the strategy was to get these morons into a controlled situation where they can be rounded up and isolated: This is a strategy that has been employed in containing other protests after all.
But no. People were just .... let go free. There was a subgroup in there, armed and equipped with flex-cuffs, that was equipped and prepared for a hostage scenario, and they too were just let go (Luckily, since these people are very stupid and kind enough to show their faces on camera or, in some instances, posting about their crimes on social media, consequences are catching up to them).

Long story short: These people were let off much more lightly than other, much less threatening protestors were treated. This whole debacle just proves once more that american police can not be trusted to do their jobs in an impartial way. That there absolutely is a difference in how you are treated by police if you are white.

The E wrote:

Michael Everett wrote:3) Lack of trust in Media.
Several of the Media companies have pulled their focus so tight on certain topics that they are seen as being more interested in stating opinions than reporting the news. As such, other news sources (both real and fake) become more popular.

It certainly doesn't help that someone keeps telling his supporters that the media is all fake and biased.

It also doesn't help that the media in the US is so scared of being seen as biased that they feel compelled to treat the sitting US President with a lot more deference than they would treat, say, a TV show host.

4) Lockdown.
America is built on individualism and freedom to the point that it can seem comical to outsiders. The multiple lockdowns have gone against this foundation and the resulting disconnect has caused quite a bit of anger.

This is .... not wrong, exactly, but a massive oversimplification.
Trump politicized the various low-effort anti-covid measures (such as social distancing and mask wearing) to a degree that no other world leader has. He turned a very straightforward public health guideline into a shibboleth separating his supporters from "The Left".

5) Law Enforcement.
The American Law Enforcement has come under a great deal of criticism over the last year+, especially over events such as the George Floyd death and abuse of no-knock warrants. This has led to people being more confrontational (which in turn leads to more incidents etc) as well as events such as the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone (a no-police area which went rather... sideways on the founders). The call of "Defund the Police", while very memorable, seems to be rather short-sighted. "Train the Police in de-escalation!" would, in my opinion, have been a better stance.

This is utterly laughable. As the storming of the Capitol showed, the police is perfectly capable of restraint and deescalation when they choose to do so. There's a marked difference between police reactions to the various BLM protests, or other, smaller scale protests in the Capitol itself to what happened on January 6th. When I saw footage of police actively helping the insurrectionists, when I saw the whole situation not become a bloodbath, I figured that the strategy was to get these morons into a controlled situation where they can be rounded up and isolated: This is a strategy that has been employed in containing other protests after all.
But no. People were just .... let go free. There was a subgroup in there, armed and equipped with flex-cuffs, that was equipped and prepared for a hostage scenario, and they too were just let go (Luckily, since these people are very stupid and kind enough to show their faces on camera or, in some instances, posting about their crimes on social media, consequences are catching up to them).

Long story short: These people were let off much more lightly than other, much less threatening protestors were treated. This whole debacle just proves once more that american police can not be trusted to do their jobs in an impartial way. That there absolutely is a difference in how you are treated by police if you are white.

I think you got this right. One possible mitigating factor was that security was too short handed to gather everybody up who needed to be gathered up. The short answer here is a question, why? I don't think we will like the answer once all is out...

Further reinforcing your point a man convicted of driving his pickup through a crowd last summer was given parole rather than being locked up... Pretty cushy, huh...

I don't have any faith that more than a fraction of the rioters will be caught or that they will get more than a slap on the fingers if caught. Let's hope that I'm wrong...

Don

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If I were one of the idiots, I'd be lining up for a pardon.