Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options

Another thing is if Young won the case it would have negative consequences for Honor's career. It would taint her image as a trustworthy officer of the Queen, and it would give her many detractors an endless supply of fodder.

Even on Grayson her court lost would resonate. Not to mention what it would do for Honor's ugly duckling image. A high powered legal defense would have a field day with Honor's lack of confidence in her looks, and capitalize on the fact that she went thru many battery powered devices in her dorm, all alone night after night. Henke would be subpoenaed to testify of her incessant looooong showers and constant buzzing sound in her bed. It would get ugly. There were probably rumors of Honor's loneliness. Heck, the rumors are probably what inspired Young to offer his services in the first place. Even certain members of the Keys called Honor out on her desperation to get someone, anyone, "rutting" between her legs. The defense would allege that Honor was simply a baseborn bitch in heat who was aching for some Lordly love.

A lowly baseborn Commoner's word against an exalted Lord's.

cthia wrote:

Garth2 wrote:Actually, as point out in text, Pavel taking Honor to court at this point in time would be the WORST thing he could do hence why it would be the best thing for the Government (or at least Allen Summervale, Duke Cromarty) not only would it a tie Young up in knots and burn political capital he didn't have but once the court ruled in Honor favour (she just plays the tape, how it came into her possession wouldn't be a factor (as Pavel himself mentions)) the scandal might force out of the House of Lords or at very least wreck the power of the blackmail files (after all who would believe him after the court case)

In addition, it would also remove Allen cousin as someone else would eliminate him (as he himself alludes to).

Plus allow for Honor to enter the House of Lords without the problems that happened from the way she did it

refit
How was the Navy refit "criminal", a Captain requested a refit and it was granted by the relevant authority as per the chain of command?

Chalet
I agree the "assault" on the chalet was criminal (as we have "inside knowledge") but I bet all the official records clearly demonstrate that it was a legitimate mistake specially as those "guests" wouldn't want to make a fuss

What "tapes" are we talking about here? Did I miss another memo?

The refit was criminal under the surface if Young's legal team can prove how it was used to hinder the duty of a Captain and an officer of the Queen's navy. The good ol' boy network might have weaknesses that can be exploited by the NH Files. A high powered legal team has ways to get at the truth. Plus, we can not underestimate Young receiving anonymous help from Honor's many enemies. Heck, the MAlign would love to assist Young behind the scenes in this matter.

My point is Young could embarrass the government at the expense of the war effort. Honor would suffer if the choice is her or the war effort. Nobody witnessed the rape attempt. He can claim Honor became angry when he spurned her advances. He could claim Honor had plans to sleep her way to the top. Unlikely to hold water, until he adds "She is a heavy worlder. What normal gravity idiot would be stupid enough to try and rape a heavy worlder?" At any rate, it would come down to his word against hers. That was an impossible proposition even in Honor's eyes. Who would believe a lowly baseborn Commoner over a Lord?

By law, Young only has to sow a seed of reasonable doubt.

Interesting post Garth2. BTW, is it a fact Young wouldn't have been able to afford a high powered legal team? I wouldn't think that Young was exactly pinching pennies.

The tape of Denver Summervale confessing to being hired by Pavel Young under interrogation at the chalet. That crucial piece of evidence which could only be used in a defensive court case without showing how it had been illegally obtained.

As a serving officer being tried for military crimes, Young did not have a choice of a civil court. The only way to get into one would be to launch his own case as the plaintiff - AFTER the military trial was completed as per textev.

In any civil case he launches(against Honor, against her subordinates or the government), he would be the accusing party who must prove things beyond reasonable doubt for the satisfaction of the court. In this situation, reasonable doubt protects those accused by him.

Young simply can't overcome that burden. With the Summervale tape, he can't prove it was illegally obtained - unless Summervale's people turn up to implicate themselves in criminal activities. Summervale himself was dead shortly afterwards, legally killed in a duel.

I'm not sure what that refit of Warlock has to do with the events of Field of Dishonor. It occurred several years prior, during OBS - and as stated, Young himself originally requested it(as a way of extending his holiday from Basilisk, no less). The admiralty and chain of command's backside is iron-clad in that instance, unless one of the few officers involved turns whistleblower. On Pavel Young's behalf. No, I don't think so.

munroburton wrote:I'm not sure what that refit of Warlock has to do with the events of Field of Dishonor. It occurred several years prior, during OBS - and as stated, Young himself originally requested it(as a way of extending his holiday from Basilisk, no less). The admiralty and chain of command's backside is iron-clad in that instance, unless one of the few officers involved turns whistleblower. On Pavel Young's behalf. No, I don't think so.

There is nothing that a whistleblower could add, Young made a request, it was initially disallowed and then later it was approved. The state of mind is immaterial as long as all the paperwork has been properly handled. Many people might think that bureaucrats are there to hinder their career; but as long as the paperwork is properly signed and filed, that is just the way things are done.

as I recall the officer in charge of the refit simply didn't give Young an answer when he mentioned the tuners when handing the ship over.

so the fact that he later did approve it, after White Haven's visit, simply means that he eventually agreed with Young that it was needed. Young can hardly complain 3 years later that the officer did something wrong when he just did what Young asked him to do.

Moreover, for Pavel Young to claim that there was something nefarious in approving the request; he would have to admit that his request was unnecessary. But isn't all this moot, since at this time he has already been thrown out of the Navy as unfit for service?

cthia wrote:

Garth2 wrote:Actually, as point out in text, Pavel taking Honor to court at this point in time would be the WORST thing he could do hence why it would be the best thing for the Government (or at least Allen Summervale, Duke Cromarty) not only would it a tie Young up in knots and burn political capital he didn't have but once the court ruled in Honor favour (she just plays the tape, how it came into her possession wouldn't be a factor (as Pavel himself mentions)) the scandal might force out of the House of Lords or at very least wreck the power of the blackmail files (after all who would believe him after the court case)

In addition, it would also remove Allen cousin as someone else would eliminate him (as he himself alludes to).

Plus allow for Honor to enter the House of Lords without the problems that happened from the way she did it

refit
How was the Navy refit "criminal", a Captain requested a refit and it was granted by the relevant authority as per the chain of command?

Chalet
I agree the "assault" on the chalet was criminal (as we have "inside knowledge") but I bet all the official records clearly demonstrate that it was a legitimate mistake specially as those "guests" wouldn't want to make a fuss

What "tapes" are we talking about here? Did I miss another memo?

The refit was criminal under the surface if Young's legal team can prove how it was used to hinder the duty of a Captain and an officer of the Queen's navy. The good ol' boy network might have weaknesses that can be exploited by the NH Files. A high powered legal team has ways to get at the truth. Plus, we can not underestimate Young receiving anonymous help from Honor's many enemies. Heck, the MAlign would love to assist Young behind the scenes in this matter.

My point is Young could embarrass the government at the expense of the war effort. Honor would suffer if the choice is her or the war effort. Nobody witnessed the rape attempt. He can claim Honor became angry when he spurned her advances. He could claim Honor had plans to sleep her way to the top. Unlikely to hold water, until he adds "She is a heavy worlder. What normal gravity idiot would be stupid enough to try and rape a heavy worlder?" At any rate, it would come down to his word against hers. That was an impossible proposition even in Honor's eyes. Who would believe a lowly baseborn Commoner over a Lord?

By law, Young only has to sow a seed of reasonable doubt.

Interesting post Garth2. BTW, is it a fact Young wouldn't have been able to afford a high powered legal team? I wouldn't think that Young was exactly pinching pennies.

munroburton wrote:The tape of Denver Summervale confessing to being hired by Pavel Young under interrogation at the chalet. That crucial piece of evidence which could only be used in a defensive court case without showing how it had been illegally obtained.

As a serving officer being tried for military crimes, Young did not have a choice of a civil court. The only way to get into one would be to launch his own case as the plaintiff - AFTER the military trial was completed as per textev.

In any civil case he launches(against Honor, against her subordinates or the government), he would be the accusing party who must prove things beyond reasonable doubt for the satisfaction of the court. In this situation, reasonable doubt protects those accused by him.

Young simply can't overcome that burden. With the Summervale tape, he can't prove it was illegally obtained - unless Summervale's people turn up to implicate themselves in criminal activities. Summervale himself was dead shortly afterwards, legally killed in a duel.

I'm not sure what that refit of Warlock has to do with the events of Field of Dishonor. It occurred several years prior, during OBS - and as stated, Young himself originally requested it(as a way of extending his holiday from Basilisk, no less). The admiralty and chain of command's backside is iron-clad in that instance, unless one of the few officers involved turns whistleblower. On Pavel Young's behalf. No, I don't think so.

I would hate to have to go up against you, munroburton, as a trial lawyer. Nice post.

The opposing legal team has to be made privy to - and given an opportunity to examine - all evidence before it is submitted. Viewing the tapes will show that the admission is made under duress. Any admission which is made under duress is inadmissible by law. Also, if Denver Summervale is dead then there is no chance of the prosecution to voir dire the witness. The tapes may be totally inadmissible.

However, Young could have prevented the duel with Summervale from taking place, thus saving Summervale's ass because his testimony is needed in a trial. Depending on when Young submitted the case, he may be able to get the court martial delayed, depending on the outcome of his trial. And in the end, the court martial would be leveled, in the face of the Navy's complicity to damage a Captain's ability to dispense his duties. Since he would have known a court martial would follow, all he needed to do was get ahead of it with his own case, which would take legal precedence since it was submitted beforehand.

Young could be coached by his legal team to throw himself under the bus for simply trying to game the system to get back to Manticore to take care of some business. That is an entirely benign charge to cop to. He can also claim the refit wasn't necessary and never thought it would be done. He can also add that it was initially refused but then later accepted to assist Honor from being relieved by Young.

.

I have no idea what the heck you’re talking about. Young was already cashiered well before he was involved with Summervale.

Duckk wrote:I have no idea what the heck you’re talking about. Young was already cashiered well before he was involved with Summervale.

Thank you Duckk! Now everybody sees one of the benefits of having a high powered legal team. They come with high powered research assistants digging into precedence and presenting the facts. Now I have plenty of time to adjust my house of cards.

cthia wrote:The opposing legal team has to be made privy to - and given an opportunity to examine - all evidence before it is submitted. Viewing the tapes will show that the admission is made under duress. Any admission which is made under duress is inadmissible by law. Also, if Denver Summervale is dead then there is no chance of the prosecution to voir dire the witness. The tapes may be totally inadmissible.

What your are saying is certainly true of the prosecution of a criminal case; but there is no criminal case involved. Honor has made certain statements, both to Denver Summervale when she challenged him and to the press after the duel. Both times she said that Denver had been hired by Pavel Young to kill Paul and then her. Since there is no criminal referral, Young's only legal option is to sue her for slander and at that point the recorded confession can be played. Why? Because it gives her reasonable grounds to believe the statements that she made were true.

If the statement made is true, there can be no claim for libel or slander. In many courts, a "reasonable belief" that the statement is true will also be a successful defense, though other courts will require higher degrees of care when determining whether a statement is true.

tlb wrote:What your are saying is certainly true of the prosecution of a criminal case; but there is no criminal case involved. Honor has made certain statements, both to Denver Summervale when she challenged him and to the press after the duel. Both times she said that Denver had been hired by Pavel Young to kill Paul and then her. Since there is no criminal referral, Young's only legal option is to sue her for slander and at that point the recorded confession can be played. Why? Because it gives her reasonable grounds to believe the statements that she made were true.

If the statement made is true, there can be no claim for libel or slander. In many courts, a "reasonable belief" that the statement is true will also be a successful defense, though other courts will require higher degrees of care when determining whether a statement is true.

And unlike in a criminal trial where the evidence presented by the prosecution must be legally obtained - in a civil slander/libel/defamation case the defendants reasonable belief of truthfulness is not limited to legally obtained information.

And RFC implicitly makes that point when he says Honor would be allowed to play the confession recording in her own defense.

Afterwards there might be a criminal investigation into how Honor got her hands on that recording. And that could potentially lead to dishonorable discharges and possible jail time for her friends that led the raid on Denver's hideout - but it wouldn't reverse the outcome of the civil suit; nor would it save Young's career. (However the illegality of acquiring the recording would prevent the Government from using it to charge him in the illegal act of hiring someone to provoke a duel for the purpose of killing the victim)



Heck, in defending against such a suit you don't even have to prove that your evidence is true as long as you can show why you'd reasonable believe if was.

If you've got a recording of someone (who may be lying) claiming to do some horrible thing - then you accuse them of it and are sued for slander - that recording is extremely strong evidence that you had a reasonable belief your accusation was true; even if they're able to prove they actually didn't do it. So even if Young was somehow able to discredit the recording and hide the fact that he did in fact hire Denver he'd still lose his civil suit because Honor could show why she had reasonable belief (Denver's own words) that her accusation was true. (Though if he'd pulled on that miracle he'd presumably mitigate most of the societal and career impact of the revelation of the recording)