Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Someone in my social circle once suggested a more benign attack on Honor's mother using the power of the NH Files. Similar to what was threatened by Hauptman.

The North Hollow files consisted of blackmail material, so it is not clear how useful that would be. What Hauptman threatened was a bit more direct, since Honor's parents worked for one of his companies; I assume that he was threatening to have them fired with something cooked up, so they would have a hard time finding other employment.

I never understood why Alison didn't have her own practice by then, as her colleague Dr. Iliescu had.

I also wonder just how far up the food chain the NH Files went. Did they reach the Palace?

cthia wrote:I never understood why Alison didn't have her own practice by then, as her colleague Dr. Iliescu had.

Alison being royalty was obviously ret-con'd into later books. The reason she didn't have a practice is simply the author didn't flesh out Alison until it was needed.

cthia wrote:I also wonder just how far up the food chain the NH Files went. Did they reach the Palace?

There was some functionaries in the Palace working for North Hallow in one of the shorts. It never said it was blackmail or bribery, but even if just bribery NH now had said functionary in the NH files.

Erls wrote:Someone in my social circle once suggested a more benign attack on Honor's mother using the power of the NH Files. Similar to what was threatened by Hauptman.
The North Hollow files consisted of blackmail material, so it is not clear how useful that would be. What Hauptman threatened was a bit more direct, since Honor's parents worked for one of his companies; I assume that he was threatening to have them fired with something cooked up, so they would have a hard time finding other employment.

Hauptman likely didn't realize how influential Honor's mother actually is/was on Beowulf. Had Hauptman actually gone through with the threat to hurt Honor's parents, it is quite possible his cartel could have found itself facing increased customs inspections and difficulty in finding landing slips in Beowulf. The SL would have been more than happy to focus extra hard on Manticore's largest cartel - and Manticore would have hesitated to push the matter if the Beowulf government raised the issue diplomatically.

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Why would the SKM or Beowulf government get involved in a Cartel, deciding that the investment within a business unit was not returning the required profits and selling it/shutting it down?

Don't forget at this point Honor wasn't a Member of the Lords (as the event occurs in OBS), presumably by now there has been a quite transfer between Hauptman Cartel and SkyDomes of Grayson.

As for Young, up until the death of his father his actions were protected (there is multiple references) and as indicated at the duel he didn't truly realises how "hollow" his and his brother life were. He was used to making a mess and someone else cleaning it up.
I got the feeling he was very fixated person who didn't deal with set backs very well and generally blamed everyone else i.e. "someone else was at fault" - look at his reaction to the power room accident "Honor pulled people out who were to stupid to get out of the way"
His vendetta against Honor was built up in his mind and became the main driving force and "had to be solved" to point were he risked everything else and (as in text) never thought she would come after him but once backed into a corner, like the "rat he is" he had no choice but to attend the duel.

As for the hit at Cosmo, the police suspected it was Young but could not prove it (at that time)

To be honest the one plot hole (if it real is) was the governments response to the "wild allegations", they should have respond with a default statement rather than being silent e.g. "Lord Young, like any citizen can take these allegations to court. Where they will be investigated and if Mrs Harrington is <blah, blah> - I'll leave it to you work out why he hasn't"

As for Lord Burdette, he was a closed minded individual unable to adapt and was doing everything to keep the world how he was used to it (combined with another delude individual and power hunger one whispering in his ear) and honestly believed that he could beat Honor in a duel (combination of his own training to date plus probably his position on women) and therefore protect himself.

Fox2! wrote:Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Alison, there was a wild card he never considered: Jacques. Would you want your picture on the BSC's orderly room walls, with the notation, "This one's family"?

I don't think membership in the BSC is widely published. The North Hollow family probably had the means to find out if they cared to, but given how self-centred they were and what they focused on, I doubt it would have occurred to them.

But I think this is a moot point. Saying "Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Allison" could be also rewritten as "assuming the Sun rises in the West" or some other preposterous condition... there's no way that could happen.

Garth 2 wrote:To be honest the one plot hole (if it real is) was the governments response to the "wild allegations", they should have respond with a default statement rather than being silent e.g. "Lord Young, like any citizen can take these allegations to court. Where they will be investigated and if Mrs Harrington is <blah, blah> - I'll leave it to you work out why he hasn't".

I do not believe that is a plot hole. It is made clear that Honor has no evidence that will stand up in criminal court; so the government is not faced with a response to charges and is not in the business of commenting on gossip. If Pavel Young chose, he could sue for slander (and that would forestall any duel while a court case was active, I would expect). But the fact that that the claims were voiced while challenging Denver Summervale, means that Honor must have evidence that could be introduced in a civil lawsuit and losing such a suit would be as damaging as refusing the eventual challenge to a duel.

Even though the Conservative Association is part of the ruling coalition and so it might be proper for the government to comment on allegations about a prominent member, at the moment the Association is blocking a declaration of war over the Navy's treatment of Young. Therefore it is politically better for the government to be silent.

cthia wrote:I never understood why Alison didn't have her own practice by then, as her colleague Dr. Iliescu had.

ZVar wrote:Alison being royalty was obviously ret-con'd into later books. The reason she didn't have a practice is simply the author didn't flesh out Alison until it was needed.

I do not agree, Allison seems to be trying to live outside of her families influence and that may include refusing financial support. Beowulf does not have royalty, but her family there is certainly prominent. Even the early books comment that her marriage was not just out of love, but also a reaction against the norms on Beowulf (but I cannot find an example of that right now).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Alison, there was a wild card he never considered: Jacques. Would you want your picture on the BSC's orderly room walls, with the notation, "This one's family"?

I don't think membership in the BSC is widely published. The North Hollow family probably had the means to find out if they cared to, but given how self-centred they were and what they focused on, I doubt it would have occurred to them.

But I think this is a moot point. Saying "Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Allison" could be also rewritten as "assuming the Sun rises in the West" or some other preposterous condition... there's no way that could happen.

My name is Jacques Benton-Ramirez y Chou. You killed my sister. Prepare to die.

You are correct, Young probably wouldn't know who Jacques was, unless the last names tipped him off. And I expect he would need a staffer. perhaps Georgia, to tell him who Jacques was, and the threat he represented. A hit on Young might even be legitimate BSC business, given all the sleezy things he's involved in.

You are also correct in saying that the chances of YOUng surviving retribution from both Alfred and Honor (and later, the Harrington Steaderholder's Own, who just happen to have diplomatic immunity) is small. Someplace in the yottachance range.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Alison, there was a wild card he never considered: Jacques. Would you want your picture on the BSC's orderly room walls, with the notation, "This one's family"?

I don't think membership in the BSC is widely published. The North Hollow family probably had the means to find out if they cared to, but given how self-centred they were and what they focused on, I doubt it would have occurred to them.

But I think this is a moot point. Saying "Assuming Young survived Alfred and Honor after harming Allison" could be also rewritten as "assuming the Sun rises in the West" or some other preposterous condition... there's no way that could happen.

Fox2! wrote:My name is Jacques Benton-Ramirez y Chou. You killed my sister. Prepare to die.

You are correct, Young probably wouldn't know who Jacques was, unless the last names tipped him off. And I expect he would need a staffer. perhaps Georgia, to tell him who Jacques was, and the threat he represented. A hit on Young might even be legitimate BSC business, given all the sleezy things he's involved in.

You are also correct in saying that the chances of YOUng surviving retribution from both Alfred and Honor (and later, the Harrington Steaderholder's Own, who just happen to have diplomatic immunity) is small. Someplace in the yottachance range.

Like W E! Interesting point Fox2! It reminds us that Honor had other options too.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I never understood why Alison didn't have her own practice by then, as her colleague Dr. Iliescu had.

ZVar wrote:Alison being royalty was obviously ret-con'd into later books. The reason she didn't have a practice is simply the author didn't flesh out Alison until it was needed.

I do not agree, Allison seems to be trying to live outside of her families influence and that may include refusing financial support. Beowulf does not have royalty, but her family there is certainly prominent. Even the early books comment that her marriage was not just out of love, but also a reaction against the norms on Beowulf (but I cannot find an example of that right now).

You responded in kind elsewhere in response to my same notion. But that is the reason she should have built her own business. She has the name, the know-how and the reputation. Who wouldn't bankroll her if she needed it.

tlb wrote:I do not agree, Allison seems to be trying to live outside of her families influence and that may include refusing financial support. Beowulf does not have royalty, but her family there is certainly prominent. Even the early books comment that her marriage was not just out of love, but also a reaction against the norms on Beowulf (but I cannot find an example of that right now).

It may have been later than you were remembering. We don't seem to have gotten her full name until mainline book 11 (At All Costs)

Still once we started getting details it's clear that not only didn't Alison want to rely on her family's wealth, she didn't want to rely on their name either. Fundraising for her own clinic based off of calling on her familial dynasty's prestige would have been totally against the grain for her. (Plus for something like a decade after she and Alfred returned to Manticore he was committed to 15 years miliary service (in the Manticoran military health system) as recompense for his military scholarship to study advanced medicine on Beowulf.
Even if Alison had wanted to start her own genetic practice it likely would have cause more separations from Alfred as he was likely reassigned several times over that decade and a half.

Plus many people hate dealing with the fundraising and business side of a company; but that's utterly unavoidable if trying to become a successful start-up. Even if Allison was willing to play on her family's fame, and even if she brought in partners to run the business side so she could focus on the genetic work that fascinated her, she'd still constantly be getting dragged out in the early years to schmooze potential investors and let them see the Beowulfian "royalty" they'd be potentially investing their money in. I don't know how she'd feel about that, but I'd find that moderately hellish; I'm much happier within an established company where I can focus on the technology and not on being a manager, developing business, or trying to raise funding.

So I don't find it as all surprising that she largely kept her family connection quiet and simply rose, without fanfare, on her own merits.

Anyway, here are a few applicable quotes.

Uncompromising Honor wrote:“I’m not surprised she doesn’t have a lot to say about the family name. For that matter, I don’t think she even thinks about it much, thanks to Allison.” Benton-Ramirez y Chou smiled faintly. “My sister was determined to get as far away from any Beowulf ‘dynasties’ as she possibly could, and she did a damned good job of it. So I’m sure that until she fell into Benjamin Mayhew’s clutches, Honor really did think of herself as a simple yeoman’s daughter.

Beginnings wrote:But Allison had always been the one who chafed the most severely at being a Benton-Ramirez y Chou. She understood—and often resented—her family’s prominence, the way its members were “expected” to go into public service or politics as well as—or even in addition to—medical careers.

Beginnings wrote:“For the same reason they hung all those names on me in the first place. Because I want to be me, not just another Benton-Ramirez y Chou buried under all those tons of family history and tradition. Nobody on Beowulf would dream of forcing me to do anything I didn’t want to do . . . and that won’t stop them for an instant from doing it anyway. I don’t want to be preprogrammed. I want to know—to know, Alfred—that the decisions I make are my decisions. And I don’t want to be some kind of . . . of medical royalty. I want to be just Allison