?

Vince wrote:Regarding missile and reconnaissance drone power systems in the Honorverse:

All Honorverse navies, prior to the RMN invention of the high-output micro-fusion reactor, used plasma capacitors to power the drives of both missiles and reconnaissance drones.

After the RMN invention of the high-output micro-fusion reactor, the RMN had a duopoly (the GSN also had access to the technology) on fusion-powered MDMs, DDMs, and the more capable Ghost Rider reconnaissance drones.

After the Grand Alliance was formed, the RMN began sharing their secrets with the other Grand Alliance navies (RHN, BSDF) and the more loosely aligned IAN, that didn't have the new technology.

Even after the RMN shared the secret of the high-output micro-fusion reactor, the RMN, GSN, IAN and BSDF still have the older plasma capacitor powered missiles and reconnaissance drones in service. (It takes time for all the existing ships using the older systems to be replaced with the newer designs.)

All other navies in the Honorverse still use the plasma capacitors to power the drives of both missiles and reconnaissance drones. No other Honorverse navy has the micro-fusion reactors.

From the Pearls of Weber:

Fission/fusion power reactors

Missile power systems

Single-drive fusion-powered missiles

How big is a recon drone?

One minor clarification on the timeline. The IAN got access to microfusion powered missiles earlier; a couple years before the Grand Alliance was formed.

The IAN SD(P)s were getting refit for Keyhole II + Apollo after they joined the Manticoran Alliance (following Operation Thunderbolt's attack on Sidemore/Marsh) and that would have involved providing them access to microfusion powered missiles.

cthia wrote:Frankly, I'm pleased that missiles don't have a reactor. Mankind shouldn't be in a habit of firing reactors down on a planet. Kews are bad enough.

The reactor is the least of the problems if a missile were to hit a planet, especially if the wedge was still up.

At least this is a micro-fusion reactor, where the reactor fuel is some form of hydrogen or helium. Dropping that on a planet is mostly harmless, it's going to escape to space. Or allow a lot of party balloons to be inflated.

This is assuming that the reactor fuel is not in plasma form. If it is still hot, then the missile is still powered and it should be dodging planets. Especially because if it is still powered, the wedge could be up.

A micro-fission reactor is a different story, since it could be dispersing radioactive material.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Frankly, I'm pleased that missiles don't have a reactor. Mankind shouldn't be in a habit of firing reactors down on a planet. Kews are bad enough.

The reactor is the least of the problems if a missile were to hit a planet, especially if the wedge was still up.

At least this is a micro-fusion reactor, where the reactor fuel is some form of hydrogen or helium. Dropping that on a planet is mostly harmless, it's going to escape to space. Or allow a lot of party balloons to be inflated.

This is assuming that the reactor fuel is not in plasma form. If it is still hot, then the missile is still powered and it should be dodging planets. Especially because if it is still powered, the wedge could be up.

A micro-fission reactor is a different story, since it could be dispersing radioactive material.

Agreed for the most part. Missiles are not going to be dodging planets if the planet is the target, as in the SL kews that were used to stop insurrections (which may or may not disperse radioactive material...considering the SL.) The radioactive material is what I'm concerned about. Which brings me back to the insanity of trusting your planet's lives to the whims of a mad man actually being deterred by retribution. The SL certainly didn't show any concern for any Manty retaliation. Desperation is hard to measure. And grievances may be misread. See the SK and the SL.

cthia wrote:Agreed for the most part. Missiles are not going to be dodging planets if the planet is the target, as in the SL kews that were used to stop insurrections (which may or may not disperse radioactive material...considering the SL.) The radioactive material is what I'm concerned about. Which brings me back to the insanity of trusting your planet's lives to the whims of a mad man actually being deterred by retribution. The SL certainly didn't show any concern for any Manty retaliation. Desperation is hard to measure. And grievances may be misread. See the SK and the SL.

KEWs are not missiles. Their very name explains what they are: kinetic energy weapons. They don't need a warhead. And given the velocity at which they impact, they don't need guidance either. They fly in a straight line (or geodesic) from launch to impact.

Now, one of the most interesting payloads for KEWs is uranium, due to its high density. But usually those are depleted uranium, so not very radioactive. Of course someone could make a dirty KEW with non-depleted uranium or some other radioctive element, but why? KEW strikes are allowed, under certain circumstances, but dirty bombs aren't. So an attacking force can get away with more KEWs than what would strictly be needed and sweep it under the rug, which we saw the SLN do in the Madras Sector. But a dirty bomb would be something completely different -- the SLN would need to blame terrorists or rogue warlords or pirates for that.

Anyway, remember there are two types of books about nuclear physics: fission and non-fission.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Agreed for the most part. Missiles are not going to be dodging planets if the planet is the target, as in the SL kews that were used to stop insurrections (which may or may not disperse radioactive material...considering the SL.) The radioactive material is what I'm concerned about. Which brings me back to the insanity of trusting your planet's lives to the whims of a mad man actually being deterred by retribution. The SL certainly didn't show any concern for any Manty retaliation. Desperation is hard to measure. And grievances may be misread. See the SK and the SL.

KEWs are not missiles. Their very name explains what they are: kinetic energy weapons. They don't need a warhead. And given the velocity at which they impact, they don't need guidance either. They fly in a straight line (or geodesic) from launch to impact.

Now, one of the most interesting payloads for KEWs is uranium, due to its high density. But usually those are depleted uranium, so not very radioactive. Of course someone could make a dirty KEW with non-depleted uranium or some other radioctive element, but why? KEW strikes are allowed, under certain circumstances, but dirty bombs aren't. So an attacking force can get away with more KEWs than what would strictly be needed and sweep it under the rug, which we saw the SLN do in the Madras Sector. But a dirty bomb would be something completely different -- the SLN would need to blame terrorists or rogue warlords or pirates for that.

Anyway, remember there are two types of books about nuclear physics: fission and non-fission.

The KEWs used in the Madras sector were missiles of a sort - a small container of them was fired from a CM tube and used a short lived wedge to accelerate up to insane velocities - so a 1 ton"ish" impactor would be accelerated for a second or 2 - controlling the length of acceleration would be the control of the impact velocity

I think were would also be a differentiator in the size of KEW used. The devices used in the Madras sector were tactical to strategic sized - battlefield to city killer weapons- 1 Megaton range max (tnt equivalent).

Replace that with a Theater class KEW or a ELE (Extinction level Event) class KEW, and you've crossed the line into EE territory - where indiscriminate destruction of entire continental to planetary populations is caused.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Agreed for the most part. Missiles are not going to be dodging planets if the planet is the target, as in the SL kews that were used to stop insurrections (which may or may not disperse radioactive material...considering the SL.) The radioactive material is what I'm concerned about. Which brings me back to the insanity of trusting your planet's lives to the whims of a mad man actually being deterred by retribution. The SL certainly didn't show any concern for any Manty retaliation. Desperation is hard to measure. And grievances may be misread. See the SK and the SL.

KEWs are not missiles. Their very name explains what they are: kinetic energy weapons. They don't need a warhead. And given the velocity at which they impact, they don't need guidance either. They fly in a straight line (or geodesic) from launch to impact.

Now, one of the most interesting payloads for KEWs is uranium, due to its high density. But usually those are depleted uranium, so not very radioactive. Of course someone could make a dirty KEW with non-depleted uranium or some other radioctive element, but why? KEW strikes are allowed, under certain circumstances, but dirty bombs aren't. So an attacking force can get away with more KEWs than what would strictly be needed and sweep it under the rug, which we saw the SLN do in the Madras Sector. But a dirty bomb would be something completely different -- the SLN would need to blame terrorists or rogue warlords or pirates for that.

Anyway, remember there are two types of books about nuclear physics: fission and non-fission.

Understood. However, we have discussed in another thread how a missile ramming a sidewall should unleash a hellish amount of kinetic energy. So, there is no reason the SL's Case Buccaneer - or whatever other plan they devised to enter a system and shoot and run - won't have a kinetic effect. And since Fearless showed us that nukes are carried aboard a modern ship, then I can't - with good conscience - dismiss the SL from using nukes in the place of intended Kews. For whatever reason. Like, otherwise, dry magazines, yadda yadda yadda.

In a sense, I'm thinking radioactive material in many ways is worse. It can be a slow, and quick, and silent killer. Depending on the weather patterns on some planets, deadly material can be spread all over the planet. At any rate, my intent was to cover all bases. The SL breaks the mold.

cthia wrote:Understood. However, we have discussed in another thread how a missile ramming a sidewall should unleash a hellish amount of kinetic energy. So, there is no reason the SL's Case Buccaneer - or whatever other plan they devised to enter a system and shoot and run - won't have a kinetic effect. And since Fearless showed us that nukes are carried aboard a modern ship, then I can't - with good conscience - dismiss the SL from using nukes in the place of intended Kews. For whatever reason. Like, otherwise, dry magazines, yadda yadda yadda.

In a sense, I'm thinking radioactive material in many ways is worse. It can be a slow, and quick, and silent killer. Depending on the weather patterns on some planets, deadly material can be spread all over the planet. At any rate, my intent was to cover all bases. The SL breaks the mold.

Though the nukes the ships carry aren't like today's nukes. Our fusion warheads have a fission core to produce the radiation that triggers the fusion. And so all our warheads would become an inefficient dirty bomb - scattering radioactive material around - if you used one on a KEW (whether deliberately or due to warhead failure).

But honorverse nukes are pure hydrogen fusion devices (IIRC using gravity to crush the hydrogen to the point it explosively fuses) - so they only leave radioactive debris if the warhead was actually activated close enough to a target to create large amounts of radioactive fallout by irradiating the ground/water/target.

So the SLN committed to case Buccaneer might use nuclear strikes on the panel, with their resulting radioactive issues. (Though depending on exactly how Honorverse ship's rad shields work that tech might be repurposable to cleaning of planet-side radioactive particles) But they'd have to be doing so just to make a longer term problem - because against planetary target the destructive power of the nuke isn't going to add anything noticeable to the bang you could get from pure kinetic impact from an anti-ship missile.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Understood. However, we have discussed in another thread how a missile ramming a sidewall should unleash a hellish amount of kinetic energy. So, there is no reason the SL's Case Buccaneer - or whatever other plan they devised to enter a system and shoot and run - won't have a kinetic effect. And since Fearless showed us that nukes are carried aboard a modern ship, then I can't - with good conscience - dismiss the SL from using nukes in the place of intended Kews. For whatever reason. Like, otherwise, dry magazines, yadda yadda yadda.

In a sense, I'm thinking radioactive material in many ways is worse. It can be a slow, and quick, and silent killer. Depending on the weather patterns on some planets, deadly material can be spread all over the planet. At any rate, my intent was to cover all bases. The SL breaks the mold.

Though the nukes the ships carry aren't like today's nukes. Our fusion warheads have a fission core to produce the radiation that triggers the fusion. And so all our warheads would become an inefficient dirty bomb - scattering radioactive material around - if you used one on a KEW (whether deliberately or due to warhead failure).

But honorverse nukes are pure hydrogen fusion devices (IIRC using gravity to crush the hydrogen to the point it explosively fuses) - so they only leave radioactive debris if the warhead was actually activated close enough to a target to create large amounts of radioactive fallout by irradiating the ground/water/target.

So the SLN committed to case Buccaneer might use nuclear strikes on the panel, with their resulting radioactive issues. (Though depending on exactly how Honorverse ship's rad shields work that tech might be repurposable to cleaning of planet-side radioactive particles) But they'd have to be doing so just to make a longer term problem - because against planetary target the destructive power of the nuke isn't going to add anything noticeable to the bang you could get from pure kinetic impact from an anti-ship missile.

Thanks for the reminder. I think ThinksMarkedly was pointing that out upstream, and Weird Harold in another long forgotten thread. But, I was under the impression the tech was exclusive to the SK. I didn't think even the Peeps had it. Dunno why.

Planets are huge. While nuclear power plants have many tons of fissionable materials, even our current dirty bombs only have say 5 kg of plutonium or uranium each. The amount of radioactivity released from even a hundred of them wouldn't destroy the habitability of a planet.
My Mazda was made in Hiroshima, and they were building them there since the 1920s. Not so at Chernobyl.
Considering the free energy available in the Honorverse from wedge technology, no one would consider bombarding a planet with nukes.

Daryl wrote:Planets are huge. While nuclear power plants have many tons of fissionable materials, even our current dirty bombs only have say 5 kg of plutonium or uranium each. The amount of radioactivity released from even a hundred of them wouldn't destroy the habitability of a planet.
My Mazda was made in Hiroshima, and they were building them there since the 1920s. Not so at Chernobyl.
Considering the free energy available in the Honorverse from wedge technology, no one would consider bombarding a planet with nukes.

Habitability, no. But the increase in background radiation can cause severe cancers and other long-term health issues (which may be curable in developed worlds in the HH, but probably not in the Verge). The fallout can also cause crop failure and other ecological disasters by spreading heavy metals that the ecosystem can't deal with. Atmospheric testing did hamper some industries here on Earth that depended on low-background-radiation steel and other materials, but again in the HH if you need that, you can just grab a pristine ferrous asteroid.