The Torch Wormhole

Theemile wrote:The FSV is good because it has the same CL LERM missile loadout as the other 2 designs, and it's modular nature means it can carry supplies, or be a personnel lift, in addition to it's baby carrier status. Yes, refitting a JMNT freighter for the same functions is probably more likely, given the universe happenings, but no where as elegant as the FSV.

I think FSVs would be useful because of their multi-role purpose. They can double as marine carrier, LAC carrier as well as their regular mainteinance/repair role. Taking over an outpost probably means damaging it a little, so if they want to use the same outpost as a honey-pot to catch more slavers, they need to splash a coat of paint. They're likely to capture a few ships too, so they need prize crews and engineering support to go bow to stern to see if there are any unpleasant surprises hidden in those ships.

The operation could go as follows: first, the CL arrives in system and approaches the outpost stealthily. If it can get close enough, it can capture all ships before they try to flee; if not, the carrier wing from the FSV can keep everyone else from fleeing and spreading the word. After the outpost officially surrenders, the FSV approaches, launches the marine company while the CL goes further out to react to any ship appearing, with the LAC wing performing Combat Space Patrol close-in. After the outpost is repaired and the captured ships are turned in to prize crews, the FSV departs with some or all the captured ships. The CL either remains behind or it turns over picket duty to an FF.

The secret destruct devices the Mesan's installed on the PRHIX ships during the refit & upgrades were new. Nothing to do with any such devices the SS might have put on regular PRHN ships. I would guess that something similar was done to any of those mercenary ships that were included in Operation Ferret.
The thing is, how much time would elapse between when the time the several were caputured and someone- in the Alignment- gets around to deciding that they should be destroyed and when plus getting someone with the proper codes and a transmitter close enough to initiate the devices.

We have been told that Torch has at least a couple of DDs on order. What I suspect they are doing in the interim is using the captured ships as a resource, at least a training one to familureize people with living and working on ships and learning about operating and maintaining systems. That does carry a risk- the we know of- but it's a present ability to at least start training people with practical experience on everything from engineering, life support, tactical and navigation.
At the moment, even with partialy trained crews, they make the Torch system a nasty target for pirates. They also represenet mobile system screening capability.

There is also the the point that at least some of these ships were damaged and in the long run they represent possibly more value as materials to be scrapped out at or for Erwhon to pay for new more modern construction with at least the Manticoran "Lite" Export levels plus any Erwhon improvements.

Scrapping them -eventualy- will remove the problems of havin them blown up with crews on them either just working around in-system or out on a mission somewhere. You are likely looking at something less than a 5 T-year window before they all get turned into something more useful. Unless something unexpected happens to one of them first.

Brigade XO wrote:There is also the the point that at least some of these ships were damaged and in the long run they represent possibly more value as materials to be scrapped out at or for Erwhon to pay for new more modern construction with at least the Manticoran "Lite" Export levels plus any Erwhon improvements.

Scrapping them -eventualy- will remove the problems of havin them blown up with crews on them either just working around in-system or out on a mission somewhere. You are likely looking at something less than a 5 T-year window before they all get turned into something more useful. Unless something unexpected happens to one of them first.

Won't scrapping some of the ships reveal the device? Also, weren't there several Mesan Navy officers, including at least one who knew about the alignment, captured along with the rest? Will we ever hear about them being interrogated?

tlb wrote:Won't scrapping some of the ships reveal the device? Also, weren't there several Mesan Navy officers, including at least one who knew about the alignment, captured along with the rest? Will we ever hear about them being interrogated?

Depends on how the scrapping is done and where the device is hidden.

If it's buried up against, say, a fusion reactor or the compensator then those component would probably be carefully salvaged and reconditioned and the self-destruct devices found. But if it's just a really powerful bomb hiding somewhere out of the way and the final scrapping is basically to shred the hull it might not be found.

Still, my notion that the LDs can get a jump on the planet and take control of the orbitals and forcing a surrender, then take control of the Torch Navy and disappearing with the ships through the junction is possible.

Also, with nary a ship in the system under Torch control, they wouldn't actually be able to see transits back through the junction from the planet. And there's no way they could know where the LDs that suddenly make themselves known came from. Certainly if they were sent the long way around to preserve OpSec.

In fact, if they attack Torch, requisition the Torch Navy and be seen leaving via hyper they could divert attention away from the junction.

cthia wrote:Still, my notion that the LDs can get a jump on the planet and take control of the orbitals and forcing a surrender, then take control of the Torch Navy and disappearing with the ships through the junction is possible.

Yes. The LDs can approach to a million km of the planet, or even 4 light-seconds. That's far enough that detection probability is very low, but close enough to be able to hit any target in orbit, as they will usually have their wedges down.

That only works for a system that isn't deep-scanning up to that range and doesn't have sufficient traffic that could randomly bring a ship close enough to an LD on final approach. Torch is like that. Manticore and Haven aren't.

Either way, word still gets out if there's a ship that isn't in orbit. The RTN will likely not keep all its frigates in orbit at any point in time, so catching all of them with LDs or any spider-driven ship is nearly impossible. In fact, there's nothing the MAN can throw at it that is faster than an RTN frigate, so if all the frigates aren't destroyed in the first 2 minutes of the battle, one of them will get away and warn all the allies via Erewhon. And then the MAN finds itself in the original position of having to defend the wormhole against the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.

Conclusion: the MAN can knock Torch out and access the wormhole. It can't hold the system.

Also, with nary a ship in the system under Torch control, they wouldn't actually be able to see transits back through the junction from the planet. And there's no way they could know where the LDs that suddenly make themselves known came from. Certainly if they were sent the long way around to preserve OpSec.

In fact, if they attack Torch, requisition the Torch Navy and be seen leaving via hyper they could divert attention away from the junction.

The LDs came via hyperspace, not the wormhole. They can't come via the wormhole until the RTN is knocked out of the game. Once that happens, the MAN can bring more ships via the wormhole.

But this all goes back to "why?"

What's the reason to do all of this? It can't be spite alone.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Still, my notion that the LDs can get a jump on the planet and take control of the orbitals and forcing a surrender, then take control of the Torch Navy and disappearing with the ships through the junction is possible.

Yes. The LDs can approach to a million km of the planet, or even 4 light-seconds. That's far enough that detection probability is very low, but close enough to be able to hit any target in orbit, as they will usually have their wedges down.

That only works for a system that isn't deep-scanning up to that range and doesn't have sufficient traffic that could randomly bring a ship close enough to an LD on final approach. Torch is like that. Manticore and Haven aren't.

Either way, word still gets out if there's a ship that isn't in orbit. The RTN will likely not keep all its frigates in orbit at any point in time, so catching all of them with LDs or any spider-driven ship is nearly impossible. In fact, there's nothing the MAN can throw at it that is faster than an RTN frigate, so if all the frigates aren't destroyed in the first 2 minutes of the battle, one of them will get away and warn all the allies via Erewhon. And then the MAN finds itself in the original position of having to defend the wormhole against the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.

Conclusion: the MAN can knock Torch out and access the wormhole. It can't hold the system.

Also, with nary a ship in the system under Torch control, they wouldn't actually be able to see transits back through the junction from the planet. And there's no way they could know where the LDs that suddenly make themselves known came from. Certainly if they were sent the long way around to preserve OpSec.

In fact, if they attack Torch, requisition the Torch Navy and be seen leaving via hyper they could divert attention away from the junction.

The LDs came via hyperspace, not the wormhole. They can't come via the wormhole until the RTN is knocked out of the game. Once that happens, the MAN can bring more ships via the wormhole.

But this all goes back to "why?"

What's the reason to do all of this? It can't be spite alone.

Huh? Isn't their entire centuries long plan built atop spite alone? Spite alone has been fueling their reactor's rage for centuries.

In this case there may be an additional windfall of acquiring new tech and additional ships to add to their order of battle. And, in the scenario I just set up, they can divert attention away from the junction. Besides, there are lots of personal targets in the system.

cthia wrote:Huh? Isn't their entire centuries long plan built atop spite alone? Spite alone has been fueling their reactor's rage for centuries.

In this case there may be an additional windfall of acquiring new tech and additional ships to add to their order of battle. And, in the scenario I just set up, they can divert attention away from the junction. Besides, there are lots of personal targets in the system.

Yes and no.

Yes, they've been fuelled with spite against Beowulf. When the Congo System was liberated, they indeed attacked out of spite, using a convenient cut out, and didn't care that the planet would go up in flames after an Eridani Edict Violation. There's no doubt that the Detweilers and the inner core of the Onion are full of spite. And arrogance.

But they don't see themselves as evil. There's no evil laughter with the pinky finger next to the mouth (picture Dr. Evil here). And last I checked, none of them was stroking the fur of a cat on their laps.

By that I mean that they still think of themselves as rational beings, with rational and reasonable justifications for their actions. Every action must be in support of a goal, either tactical or strategic. Their conclusions may be misguided because their echo chamber has reinforced incorrect assumptions and they may be operating on incomplete information. But they're still logical, for them.

Acquiring technology would be a good objective, but I raise two questions in that. First, where is said technology to be acquired in the Congo System? It can't be the frigates, there's little chance that any of them can be taken intact. They're too fast to be run down by anything the MAN has, so they have to be destroyed from afar.

Second, is it worth the exposure risk? Can they be sure the debris from destroyed ships will yield any useful information? They're also poking a very big hornet's nest here, so the flip side must be rather large to be worth it.

I can believe they would convince themselves of this, but only after their regular technology-stealing sources dry up for a long time. They would need to see the GA pulling quite far ahead in the technology curve, with their own R&D unable to unlock some of the secrets like micro-fusion bottles and gravitic baffles. And since they'll have pulled to Darius and cut almost all ties to the spy network, this could happen. And yet, if it did, it means the strategic circumstances have changed too and we'd have to take that into account in any defence of the Congo System.

In other words, if the MAlign concluded that the exposure was worth the technological gains to be found in the Congo System, what technology is that?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Either way, word still gets out if there's a ship that isn't in orbit. The RTN will likely not keep all its frigates in orbit at any point in time, so catching all of them with LDs or any spider-driven ship is nearly impossible. In fact, there's nothing the MAN can throw at it that is faster than an RTN frigate, so if all the frigates aren't destroyed in the first 2 minutes of the battle, one of them will get away and warn all the allies via Erewhon. And then the MAN finds itself in the original position of having to defend the wormhole against the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.

Depends in part on where the roaming frigates are. The LDs and graser torps are too low accel to be likely to catch a fleeing frigate. (They'd need to guess right about it's course and get onto the right position and vector for it to pass within weapons range).

But the LDs are expected to carry pods of Cataphract missiles. Enough of those, with ballistic segments, could swat down a frigate more than 2 minutes after it sees the initial attack. OTOH if the frigate is close enough to the hyper limit it might escape before a Cataphract swarm could overwhelm it.


Still, I generally agree it would be quite hard for the MAlign to have high confidence that every ship that might see the attack could get destroyed before it could escape with the news.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Either way, word still gets out if there's a ship that isn't in orbit. The RTN will likely not keep all its frigates in orbit at any point in time, so catching all of them with LDs or any spider-driven ship is nearly impossible. In fact, there's nothing the MAN can throw at it that is faster than an RTN frigate, so if all the frigates aren't destroyed in the first 2 minutes of the battle, one of them will get away and warn all the allies via Erewhon. And then the MAN finds itself in the original position of having to defend the wormhole against the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.

Depends in part on where the roaming frigates are. The LDs and graser torps are too low accel to be likely to catch a fleeing frigate. (They'd need to guess right about it's course and get onto the right position and vector for it to pass within weapons range).

But the LDs are expected to carry pods of Cataphract missiles. Enough of those, with ballistic segments, could swat down a frigate more than 2 minutes after it sees the initial attack. OTOH if the frigate is close enough to the hyper limit it might escape before a Cataphract swarm could overwhelm it.


Still, I generally agree it would be quite hard for the MAlign to have high confidence that every ship that might see the attack could get destroyed before it could escape with the news.

Of course, this is assuming the Frigate is in the system, in range, and not playing hyper limit picket acting like a black hole in space with their Manty built stealth and ECM.