The Torch Wormhole

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And from Beowulf too, there were a lot of ex-slaves that emigrated from Beowulf to Torch. Plus both the RMN and the RHN were providing loaned officers to the RTN, like the RMN had done two decades earlier for the GSN.

We all agree that it would be better to get away from the Solly deathtraps and the old manpower blackholes as soon as possible. The Havenite designs are probably the easiest to offload, though they're also the easiest to maintain since they are designs of an ally. If they needed parts, Haven could provide. The Solly hulls, though... none of the allies want them and selling them to someone else could be problematic.

Think about it: those ships were illegally acquired by Manpower/MAlign in the first place. Then they were captured in a battle that was barely publicised, fought by a force that that very much wanted to stay hidden, using ships that shouldn't exist. True that now in 1923, the MARS has declared independence and formed its real Navy, so it can go out in the open about the ships it does have. And I suppose that now that the MAlign's existence is known, letting the Galaxy know that they'd funded ships isn't a big deal (of course, everyone knew that after Monica anyway and those were BCs).

Those ships can probably be sold as scrap metal only and I doubt that covers the price of a frigate. Maybe two-for-one deal with Klaus.

The crews of the original Frigates all had suspicious Beowulf accents, so I figured Beowulf (already at peace at the time) already allowed their slave descendants to cross-deck prior to 1920

As for the old ships - sell the missiles, drones, and any expensive parts on the open market - a missile loadout is usually as expensive as the hull for peacetime navies, and mnay users of old sn units will esire the bargin. Of course, Manticore probably already flooded the market post "Raging Justice".

I'll append to my Manty ship list want an FSV, with a LAC module, a personnel lift module, a supply module and a pod module. Fill the module with 36 Shrikes and carry 8 Katanas internally. Drop in any secondary system with the FSV, 2 Avalons, 2-4 Frigates and the Kammerling, and you will have control of the system in a short amount of time - bring in the FSV once the system is secured to lift off the former slaves, and scoot back out.

Theemile wrote:bring in the FSV once the system is secured to lift off the former slaves, and scoot back out.

When is Thandi Palane goig to act on some of these things? From Crown of Slaves, chapter 42:

Not all that figuratively, thought Thandi savagely. A memory came to her, of a Mesan outpost she'd passed through once as she was reporting to a new assignment. The planet was named Kuy, and wasn't much more than a large mining operation run by one of Mesa's major combines, using Manpower slaves as the primary work force. Thandi had been traveling via civilian transport, paid for by the Marine Corps. She'd spent two days there, after being dropped off, waiting for a connection to take her to her final destiny.
It had been a grim experience. Not a surprising one, of course, for someone born and raised on Ndebele.
Kuy's not far from here, now that I think about it.
For a few moments, images flashed through her mind. How she'd plan and lead an assault on the planet. To do it properly would require a battalion-sized force, but she was quite sure she could manage that. A few warships—small ones would do—to clear away any pickets and capture any Mesan commercial vessels in orbit.

When will they liberate Kuy?

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:bring in the FSV once the system is secured to lift off the former slaves, and scoot back out.

When is Thandi Palane goig to act on some of these things? From Crown of Slaves, chapter 42:

Not all that figuratively, thought Thandi savagely. A memory came to her, of a Mesan outpost she'd passed through once as she was reporting to a new assignment. The planet was named Kuy, and wasn't much more than a large mining operation run by one of Mesa's major combines, using Manpower slaves as the primary work force. Thandi had been traveling via civilian transport, paid for by the Marine Corps. She'd spent two days there, after being dropped off, waiting for a connection to take her to her final destiny.
It had been a grim experience. Not a surprising one, of course, for someone born and raised on Ndebele.
Kuy's not far from here, now that I think about it.
For a few moments, images flashed through her mind. How she'd plan and lead an assault on the planet. To do it properly would require a battalion-sized force, but she was quite sure she could manage that. A few warships—small ones would do—to clear away any pickets and capture any Mesan commercial vessels in orbit.

When will they liberate Kuy?

We saw the one raid in CoG. Who knows what else has happened off camera?

tlb wrote:From Crown of Slaves, chapter 42:

Not all that figuratively, thought Thandi savagely. A memory came to her, of a Mesan outpost she'd passed through once as she was reporting to a new assignment. The planet was named Kuy, and wasn't much more than a large mining operation run by one of Mesa's major combines, using Manpower slaves as the primary work force. Thandi had been traveling via civilian transport, paid for by the Marine Corps. She'd spent two days there, after being dropped off, waiting for a connection to take her to her final destiny.
It had been a grim experience. Not a surprising one, of course, for someone born and raised on Ndebele.
Kuy's not far from here, now that I think about it.
For a few moments, images flashed through her mind. How she'd plan and lead an assault on the planet. To do it properly would require a battalion-sized force, but she was quite sure she could manage that. A few warships—small ones would do—to clear away any pickets and capture any Mesan commercial vessels in orbit.

When will they liberate Kuy?

Two or three frigates and a freighter converted to personnel transport will probably do. Or an FSV, which can double as marine as well as technician transport. At least for nearby systems, like Kuy is reported to be.

The problem with FF and DD is that they don't have a lot of legs. That's why CLs exist: load out between an FF and a DD, but with much longer operating time away from home ports. So if the RTN wants to go liberating slaver outposts, they're going to need some CLs.

The thing is... Manpower is now history. There may be some other non-Mesan slaver entities out there, as well as remote Manpower sites that might want to strike out on their own, but without the deep coffers of Manpower they're going to die on the vine. That means they won't be able to afford mercenaries to defend them, so a single frigate with a half-strength marine company might suffice for most targets.

Food for thought: what if the RTN did start before Operation Houdini, but we weren't told?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem with FF and DD is that they don't have a lot of legs. That's why CLs exist: load out between an FF and a DD, but with much longer operating time away from home ports. So if the RTN wants to go liberating slaver outposts, they're going to need some CLs.

Traditionally, Frigates had legs, but no bite, DDs had bite, but no legs. CLs had legs, bite and a little more of each than either of the smaller deigns.

Starting in the late 1800s, DDs have legs and Bite, and CLs have even more, but both have grown to accept this stance.

The current Torch Frigates certainly have bite, but no combat endurance (what really killed the class, in addition to small amounts of modern defenses), and their "cramped" nature and small crews probably don't make them the best long distance ships.

Theemile wrote:
Traditionally, Frigates had legs, but no bite, DDs had bite, but no legs. CLs had legs, bite and a little more of each than either of the smaller deigns.

Starting in the late 1800s, DDs have legs and Bite, and CLs have even more, but both have grown to accept this stance.

The current Torch Frigates certainly have bite, but no combat endurance (what really killed the class, in addition to small amounts of modern defenses), and their "cramped" nature and small crews probably don't make them the best long distance ships.

Current RMN Shrikes and Katanas are considered equal to or superior to War Harvest DD's (in some textev opinions, Solly CL's) in missile defense capabilities.

Torch's frigates are, at least, twice as well armed as the Shrikes. They may lack the Vipers and the latest marks of CM's, for the moment, but that doesn't take away from their defense capabilities that much. They may be hyper capable eggshells armed with hammers but they are really hard to hit eggshells armed with great big hammers. They are toast in a long engagement because they don't have the magazine space- but so are Rolands.

jtg452 wrote:Torch's frigates are, at least, twice as well armed as the Shrikes. They may lack the Vipers and the latest marks of CM's, for the moment, but that doesn't take away from their defense capabilities that much. They may be hyper capable eggshells armed with hammers but they are really hard to hit eggshells armed with great big hammers. They are toast in a long engagement because they don't have the magazine space- but so are Rolands.

Rolands can hold out just fine against Solly BCs, as evidenced at Saltash. And they can fire DDMs, which put them outside the range of any current enemy. That puts them at a whole other category compared to the frigates.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Torch's frigates are, at least, twice as well armed as the Shrikes. They may lack the Vipers and the latest marks of CM's, for the moment, but that doesn't take away from their defense capabilities that much. They may be hyper capable eggshells armed with hammers but they are really hard to hit eggshells armed with great big hammers. They are toast in a long engagement because they don't have the magazine space- but so are Rolands.

Rolands can hold out just fine against Solly BCs, as evidenced at Saltash. And they can fire DDMs, which put them outside the range of any current enemy. That puts them at a whole other category compared to the frigates.

That's why I was recommending the Avalon/Kammerling/FSV - all fire the LERM, which has a range outstripping everything by but the latest mark of Cataphract, yet carries an overpowered DD/CL warhead and they all have overpowered defenses (the Aries, an Avalon CL, was the only ship to walk away from Monica untouched.) The LERM is also more "export grade" than the mk 16, and all 3 of those designs are designed for long duration cruising.

Theemile wrote:That's why I was recommending the Avalon/Kammerling/FSV - all fire the LERM, which has a range outstripping everything by but the latest mark of Cataphract, yet carries an overpowered DD/CL warhead and they all have overpowered defenses (the Aries, an Avalon CL, was the only ship to walk away from Monica untouched.) The LERM is also more "export grade" than the mk 16, and all 3 of those designs are designed for long duration cruising.

Where's you find that Kamerlings carry LERMs?
I suppose it's a reasonable guess based on when it entered service; but HoS doesn't seem to say one way or the other and I don't recall seeing a Kamerling in any of the other books.

But I'm not sure what Torch would be doing where it needed a bunch of infantry assault optimized large light cruisers. Okay, on twice the tonnage of an Avalon they do mount 50% more point defense. But they also carry 20% fewer missile tubes and you're toting around 3 companies of Marines + landing craft which you probably don't need most of the time.

It's bigger again, but a better fit than a Kamerling would be a Saganami-B, a true CA which carried the Mark-14 ERM heavier weight counterpart to the DD/CL weight Mark-36 LERM. It carries even more point defense, is a tougher ship, and mounts more (and heavier) missiles than an Avalon (rather than fewer like a Kamerling)



Plus Manticore would seem to be more likely to sell off some Sag-Bs, since the relatively few Kamerlings they built are busy keeping order in Silesia and they're the best ships Manticore has for that task. But the Sag-Bs are 2nd line units with a superior replacement already in fleet service, the Sag-C.

And similar idea for the FSV - yes it acts as a small CLAC - but buying a small repair & logistics ship capable of keeping up with and suppling BC raiders on ultra-deep raids seems like an expensive way to get a CL's armament + some LACs. Torch seems unlikely to need that level of mobile repair & supply. And I don't get the impression Manticore has any spare at the moment anyway - and can't exactly build more right now. If you really want a small CLAC that can fire LERMs you could probably get it for a lot less cost getting Haven + Beowulf to design and build you one without all the large and expensive repair and logistics capabilities of an FSV.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:That's why I was recommending the Avalon/Kammerling/FSV - all fire the LERM, which has a range outstripping everything by but the latest mark of Cataphract, yet carries an overpowered DD/CL warhead and they all have overpowered defenses (the Aries, an Avalon CL, was the only ship to walk away from Monica untouched.) The LERM is also more "export grade" than the mk 16, and all 3 of those designs are designed for long duration cruising.

Where's you find that Kamerlings carry LERMs?
I suppose it's a reasonable guess based on when it entered service; but HoS doesn't seem to say one way or the other and I don't recall seeing a Kamerling in any of the other books.

But I'm not sure what Torch would be doing where it needed a bunch of infantry assault optimized large light cruisers. Okay, on twice the tonnage of an Avalon they do mount 50% more point defense. But they also carry 20% fewer missile tubes and you're toting around 3 companies of Marines + landing craft which you probably don't need most of the time.

It's bigger again, but a better fit than a Kamerling would be a Saganami-B, a true CA which carried the Mark-14 ERM heavier weight counterpart to the DD/CL weight Mark-36 LERM. It carries even more point defense, is a tougher ship, and mounts more (and heavier) missiles than an Avalon (rather than fewer like a Kamerling)



Plus Manticore would seem to be more likely to sell off some Sag-Bs, since the relatively few Kamerlings they built are busy keeping order in Silesia and they're the best ships Manticore has for that task. But the Sag-Bs are 2nd line units with a superior replacement already in fleet service, the Sag-C.

And similar idea for the FSV - yes it acts as a small CLAC - but buying a small repair & logistics ship capable of keeping up with and suppling BC raiders on ultra-deep raids seems like an expensive way to get a CL's armament + some LACs. Torch seems unlikely to need that level of mobile repair & supply. And I don't get the impression Manticore has any spare at the moment anyway - and can't exactly build more right now. If you really want a small CLAC that can fire LERMs you could probably get it for a lot less cost getting Haven + Beowulf to design and build you one without all the large and expensive repair and logistics capabilities of an FSV.

HoS did not say, But Kammerlings are CLs without bow/stern tubes - so they have to fire an offbore missile. So not including capital missiles, that leaves LAC missiles, Mk 36 LERM, MK14 ERM and Mk 16. The broadsides are too small for the mk 16 (or the capital Mk 23 for that matter), so that is out. The ship design, though marginally heavier than an Broadsword CA is classified a CL, so that indicates that the Mk 14, a cruiser weight missile, is not being used. We've never seen a major combatant with a LAC missile and this is a latest gen combatant, so the LERM is the most probable weapons system.

I never recommended getting more than one Kammerling - they are Marine support ships and designed to support Marine encounters - one could surmise that they are the replacements for the Broadside class and designed with all it goodies to support Marine operations - like the command holo tank, communications suites and oversized boatbays. 1 would allow the deployment of a heavy ground force in contested space - perfect for raids.

The Avalon would be ideal for "daily" use - a smallish crew, awesome weapons fit and defenses for it's size, and a decent Marine force would make it a good jack of all trades for Torch. So I advocated for a handful.

The Sag B's are nice, mean ships, but they don't have the automation Torch really needs for it's crew issues. Sag-Bs still have a crew of 7-800, which really cuts into Torch's manpower pool. Which isn't to say they should turn one down, if offered.

The FSV is good because it has the same CL LERM missile loadout as the other 2 designs, and it's modular nature means it can carry supplies, or be a personnel lift, in addition to it's baby carrier status. Yes, refitting a JMNT freighter for the same functions is probably more likely, given the universe happenings, but no where as elegant as the FSV.