The Torch Wormhole

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

All the former PNiE Havenite ships (5 Mars-C CAs, 2-3 CLs, and 16-18 SLN built DDs) have hidden self destruct devices installed by the Malign. Tum-te-Tum-te-tum...

Might?!

I think it was well established that there were self-destructs aboard and that the MAN "observers" were going to detonate them in case of PNE victory.

Theemile wrote:I didn't mean to imply it wasn't facts in evidence - it's just another Chekov's gun sitting out there, waiting to fall off the mantle in act 4.

jtg452 wrote:Possibly but the Havenites have been upgrading all of the former State Security ships and I figure that they would find anything hinky on those ships.

There would be done by regular Navy engineers, yard dogs and crews working on those ships and all of the Havenite ships involved were recent or current frontline light unit classes. With all of the damage control and battle damage repair that the Havenite Navy has been doing for the last few decades, I feel comfortable in figuring that they would find at least one of the devices. Being of a suspicious nature, if one is found, they will start looking for others.

As for the Solly DD's, Torch can access better. Culverns (which the Manties will be retiring as quickly as possible) would be better than sinking the effort into a handful of War Harvests that don't have parts or ammo compatibility with anything else in their forces. Even a generation or two behind current Havenite DD would be a much better option.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And I have a vague recollection that in addition to the Nat Turner-class double-headed Shrike frigates they had another class of somewhat more conventional frigates - but also with Mantie-lite technology.

There was a previous class, the John Brown class, before the Nat Turners. According to the wiki, there were 7 John Browns delivered to the ASL and to the RTN, and 8 Nat Turners directly to the RTN. Those 13 frigates bite and I wouldn't want to tangle with them unless I had modern ships of my own.

Do we know if they fire Mk16 DDMs? Or just Mk21 CMs like the Shrikes?

John Brown
Lisa B

I have heard this used quite a lot now that I am in the south (maybe just an NC thing??) Also when I saw Remember The Titans with Denzel Washington, his character said it quite a lot. It's used something like this: "That John Brown tool is no good."

The phrase is a reference to John Brown's armed raid on Harper's Ferry to attain the abolition of slavery. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/brown/).

The group he led was not armed particularly well, and the raid did not (directly, there's some question about it's social impact given the later Civil War in the United State) free the slaves. So, "a John Brown tool" is an ineffective weapon employed (impractically) for an idealistic cause.

Lewis Joplin II
It means: that damned tool.

JOHN BROWN - "An old term in the South for 'to damn'; after the abolishist John Brown. 'Well, I'll be John Browned." From "The Facts on File Dictionary of American Regionalisms: Local Expressions from Coast to Coast" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 2000).

****** *

Nat Turner's Rebellion (also known as the Southampton Insurrection) was a rebellion of black slaves that took place in Southampton County, Virginia, in August 1831,[3] led by Nat Turner. The rebels killed between 55 and 65 people, at least 51 of whom were white.[4] The rebellion was put down within a few days, but Turner survived in hiding for more than two months afterwards. The rebellion was effectively suppressed at Belmont Plantation on the morning of August 23, 1831.[5]

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:I didn't mean to imply it wasn't facts in evidence - it's just another Chekov's gun sitting out there, waiting to fall off the mantle in act 4.

I'm also pretty sure the new owners knew about self-destructs and attempted to find all of them.

The PNE crew wasn't very literate in shipboard maintenance, as Harkness was kind enough to show aboard PNS Tepes. They also considered themselves allies with the "MSN" observers they had aboard. And even if they suspected their patrons, they didn't have time to search the ship stem to stern to find self-destruct devices. So the MAlign may not have installed more than a couple and just cursorily hidden.

The RTN and SLN who did capture those ships knew they were from the enemy, one that was even attempting to commit Eridani Edict Violations. So they would have done a very thorough search when those ships were refit. The question is whether they did find all or not.

Computers must have been purged and reinstalled with Havenite or Manticoran software. So it would have to be some non-networked hardware, very well hidden (including "hiding in plain sight").

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Possibly but the Havenites have been upgrading all of the former State Security ships and I figure that they would find anything hinky on those ships.

There would be done by regular Navy engineers, yard dogs and crews working on those ships and all of the Havenite ships involved were recent or current frontline light unit classes. With all of the damage control and battle damage repair that the Havenite Navy has been doing for the last few decades, I feel comfortable in figuring that they would find at least one of the devices. Being of a suspicious nature, if one is found, they will start looking for others.

If you're referring to old self-destruct devices installed by the PN before the Havenite Civil War, I agree. It went for too long in the hands of those warlords/pirates for pieces of unknown tech to go undetected.

I was referring to something only recently installed during the refit that Manpower offered those ships, before they sailed for Torch, and especially on the new ships that Manpower gave them. Those they hadn't used for a long time before, so they didn't have a chance to search thoroughly.

As for the Solly DD's, Torch can access better. Culverns (which the Manties will be retiring as quickly as possible) would be better than sinking the effort into a handful of War Harvests that don't have parts or ammo compatibility with anything else in their forces. Even a generation or two behind current Havenite DD would be a much better option.

Not doubting that, but those still cost money, even if the RMN sells them very cheap (family & friends price). The John Brown-class frigates were acquired by the Anti-Slavery League; the Nat Turners were funded by Stacy and Klaus Hauptman, though. Meanwhile, the Solly DDs were free, gratis. They were already in-system, available, and Roszak couldn't take them home anyway. They had to stay in Torch. So the RTN might as well commission them as training and patrol vessels.

Though free, those ships can have a cost of opportunity. Training personnel on obsolete hardware and manpower-intensive ship-handling means they would need to retrain later.

Or as I'm frequently reminded, the 59th Rule of Acquisition: Free advice is seldom cheap.

Theemile wrote:
Agree on all points - better to have a more consistent navy - perhaps they could sell them off to someone else and buy what they need/want with the proceeds. For Torch, even the CAs are white Elephants - to man just one of the would require the crews of every torch frigate. To be honest, they would be better off with 4 Avalons and a Kamerling, than the 5 Mars class ships.

jtg452 wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Agree on all points - better to have a more consistent navy - perhaps they could sell them off to someone else and buy what they need/want with the proceeds. For Torch, even the CAs are white Elephants - to man just one of the would require the crews of every torch frigate. To be honest, they would be better off with 4 Avalons and a Kamerling, than the 5 Mars class ships.

The LAST thing that I would do is try to man the Mars.

Too many bodies needed and there are no bodies to begin with. How many did Honor decide that she needed to at least half way fight one at Ceberus? A thousand or slightly over? And that was about 60% of the normal compliment.

Best to work up crews to man anything- ANYTHING- that they get to replace those Solly death traps- not to mention an multiple unnecessary complications of the logistics chain (spare parts, weapons, ...) because they don't match up with either regular source AND the headache of training green crewers on one tech and methodology and then having to retrain trained crews on outmoded Solly tech.

Getting RMN or GSN hulls at the friends and family rate also cuts down crew numbers. Those ships would be getting retro-fitted and updated and those updates will cut down on crew numbers. The same could be said for any Havenite design. At least you know you can get spare parts and ammo.

The Havenite CL's would be a better choice than the DD's or CA's for right now.

Theemile wrote:The Crews of a traditional CA usually are in the 1000 man range, a BC usually 2 thousand or so - I think Honor gat their CAs down to 350-400 or so - but that's without long term admin/logistical personal, extra maintenance personal, 3-4 full manning staffs and spare weapons crews, the BCs were probably closer to 1000. The Nat Turner class frigates had crews below 100 men, IIRC (gotta check Cauldron of Ghosts again for details). Given the station, the leadership personnel, and the crews for all 14 Frigates, Torch probably had ~3000 naval personnel in 1921. Of course with the wars "ending", there will probably be a flood of trained spacers from Haven and Manticore with slave ancestry. Torch could easily double to triple it's leadership ranks by 1924 without training any "native" officers or petty officers.