?

tlb wrote:Nothing as drastic as that has to happen for Bolthole to have a problem. It could be as simple as a hacker posting the location of Bolthole in a place where the Malign would find it. Off site storage of backups is still needed.

Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

What do you mean, "gone"? I hope you're not referring to Oyster Bay, since we know almost the entire complement of Weyland survived. And they had off-site backups of their data.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

What do you mean, "gone"? I hope you're not referring to Oyster Bay, since we know almost the entire complement of Weyland survived. And they had off-site backups of their data.

There are two types of gone.

1) Left your hands.
2) In enemy hands.

tlb wrote:Nothing as drastic as that has to happen for Bolthole to have a problem. It could be as simple as a hacker posting the location of Bolthole in a place where the Malign would find it. Off site storage of backups is still needed.

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

If there is a second Oyster Bay, then it seems both cases could result in the total destruction of the Manticore military R&D establishment. However if Manticore gets a periodic download of all development data, then the only lost information consists of the latest changes. Are you saying either that I was incorrect in my understanding of what RFC has plotted or else that RFC is naive about the problems of allied developmental work? What would you propose as the ideal mix of secrecy and security with allied cooperation? If we should so fear the political instability of Haven, is it wise to be discussing free trade and free movement within the combined borders? Is there somewhere else that Manticore could maintain a major research effort that is equally unknown to the Malign and so protected from their ability to attack through stealth?

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Nothing as drastic as that has to happen for Bolthole to have a problem. It could be as simple as a hacker posting the location of Bolthole in a place where the Malign would find it. Off site storage of backups is still needed.

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

If there is a second Oyster Bay, then it seems both cases could result in the total destruction of the Manticore military R&D establishment. However if Manticore gets a periodic download of all development data, then the only lost information consists of the latest changes. Are you saying either that I was incorrect in my understanding of what RFC has plotted or else that RFC is naive about the problems of allied developmental work? What would you propose as the ideal mix of secrecy and security with allied cooperation? If we should so fear the political instability of Haven, is it wise to be discussing free trade and free movement within the combined borders? Is there somewhere else that Manticore could maintain a major research effort that is equally unknown to the Malign and so protected from their ability to attack through stealth?

Some things are nagging me about that setup, but I can't quite finger it. I think it's a combination of factors. The entire Manticoran personnel associated with Gram has relocated to Bolthole? How efficient is that? Has their entire families been uprooted to join them too? Or is Bolthole more like a banishment, without the family. How often do they see each other? I'm sure the kids don't like being away from a parent. Did the kids have to leave the best school system in the galaxy to study, where exactly? That isn't going to sit too well with the sgudents. What, weekend visitation?

So there is exactly no, as in nada, research going on in the most educated system in the galaxy because they are afraid? But Manticorans don't run scared.

tlb wrote:Nothing as drastic as that has to happen for Bolthole to have a problem. It could be as simple as a hacker posting the location of Bolthole in a place where the Malign would find it. Off site storage of backups is still needed.

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

tlb wrote:If there is a second Oyster Bay, then it seems both cases could result in the total destruction of the Manticore military R&D establishment. However if Manticore gets a periodic download of all development data, then the only lost information consists of the latest changes. Are you saying either that I was incorrect in my understanding of what RFC has plotted or else that RFC is naive about the problems of allied developmental work? What would you propose as the ideal mix of secrecy and security with allied cooperation? If we should so fear the political instability of Haven, is it wise to be discussing free trade and free movement within the combined borders? Is there somewhere else that Manticore could maintain a major research effort that is equally unknown to the Malign and so protected from their ability to attack through stealth?

cthia wrote:Some things are nagging me about that setup, but I can't quite finger it. I think it's a combination of factors. The entire Manticoran personnel associated with Gram has relocated to Bolthole? How efficient is that? Has their entire families been uprooted to join them too? Or is Bolthole more like a banishment, without the family. How often do they see each other? I'm sure the kids don't like being away from a parent. Did the kids have to leave the best school system in the galaxy to study, where exactly? That isn't going to sit too well with the students. What, weekend visitation?

So there is exactly no, as in nada, research going on in the most educated system in the galaxy because they are afraid? But Manticorans don't run scared.

As I tried to indicate, I could be wrong in my reading and I do not know where the text is for how much of the research moved to Bolthole. For all I know only unmarried researchers were moved to Bolthole,

If someone has the text and reads it differently I would be glad to hear. I do think that the move makes sense in light of the ability of the Malign to make a stealth attack on any station whose location they know. Manticore does not run scared, but they are quite willing to take advantage of every favorable situation that they can find.

I am not convinced there is a danger of a resurgence by the Levelers.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Nothing as drastic as that has to happen for Bolthole to have a problem. It could be as simple as a hacker posting the location of Bolthole in a place where the Malign would find it. Off site storage of backups is still needed.

kzt wrote:Well, in one of these bolthole has a problem. In the other the entire RMN design, research and development establishment is gone, along with all their work.

tlb wrote:If there is a second Oyster Bay, then it seems both cases could result in the total destruction of the Manticore military R&D establishment. However if Manticore gets a periodic download of all development data, then the only lost information consists of the latest changes. Are you saying either that I was incorrect in my understanding of what RFC has plotted or else that RFC is naive about the problems of allied developmental work? What would you propose as the ideal mix of secrecy and security with allied cooperation? If we should so fear the political instability of Haven, is it wise to be discussing free trade and free movement within the combined borders? Is there somewhere else that Manticore could maintain a major research effort that is equally unknown to the Malign and so protected from their ability to attack through stealth?

cthia wrote:Some things are nagging me about that setup, but I can't quite finger it. I think it's a combination of factors. The entire Manticoran personnel associated with Gram has relocated to Bolthole? How efficient is that? Has their entire families been uprooted to join them too? Or is Bolthole more like a banishment, without the family. How often do they see each other? I'm sure the kids don't like being away from a parent. Did the kids have to leave the best school system in the galaxy to study, where exactly? That isn't going to sit too well with the students. What, weekend visitation?

So there is exactly no, as in nada, research going on in the most educated system in the galaxy because they are afraid? But Manticorans don't run scared.

As I tried to indicate, I could be wrong in my reading and I do not know where the text is for how much of the research moved to Bolthole. For all I know only unmarried researchers were moved to Bolthole,

If someone has the text and reads it differently I would be glad to hear. I do think that the move makes sense in light of the ability of the Malign to make a stealth attack on any station whose location they know. Manticore does not run scared, but they are quite willing to take advantage of every favorable situation that they can find.

I am not convinced there is a danger of a resurgence by the Levelers.

Not having the exact text in front of me, it read to me that the entire department was shipped to Bolthole. No heavy explanation to it. There had to be more to it than that - people with hardship or location restrictions probably got reassigned, but the jobs went to Bolthole.

As for no family - where in the entire course of the series has the Manticorian navy been concerned with families? Thousands were assigned to Hancock, Grendlesbane, or on 6 month long tours in Silesia with no concern of family life (Remember this story is an analogue of naval life in the 1800s). Bolthole is just another assignment at a duty station.

Unlike the above stations I mentioned, Bolthole actually has a populated planet in the system. It might have been possible to bring family to live there (probably not initially, but in time).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And I've said before and will say it again: RFC must be holding something about MAlign tech that he hasn't told us about. The little we know about the Lenny Dets makes no sense as a warship. It's too slow and too vulnerable, depending exclusively on stealth. So I do think they must have some technological breakthrough we haven't heard about yet, which makes this ship useful in combat. Maybe it is a 2-million-gravity missile, but I don't think so. A 5-million-km graser is more likely and grasers are an area we've been told they've researched.

For purely stealth surprise attacks, I'd go smaller, not bigger. A Shark can do the job as well as an LD, but having a smaller profile it's less susceptible to detection. And if destroyed, the loss in investment is smaller.

Transplanted this organ from another thread.

Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

cthia wrote:Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

At the end I have the text from chapter 40 of Honor Among Enemies, where it is quite clear that a single ship was targeted with multiple grasers.

A bigger ship can hold and power a bigger graser (a LAC is an exception, since its single graser is bigger than any on a destroyer - I believe). The graser and the wedge are independent of each other, we know that the GA plans to have unmanned graser units to replace some mines at junctions (without mention of a wedge).

I suppose a collier could carry Sharks, but the Shark is hyper-capable; so does not really need to be carried (although that might make it easier on the crews).

I am not aware of any text about the Leonard Detweiler class, except for the little snippets when the Sharks were sent off, because the big boys were not ready.

Achmed staggered as the first massive graser blew effortlessly through her sidewall. Her flanks carried over a meter of armor, the toughest alloy of ceramic and composites man had yet learned to forge, and the graser tore through it with contemptuous ease. Huge splinters blew out of the dreadful wound, and her relative motion turned what should have been a single puncture into a huge, gaping slash. It opened her side like a gutting knife opening a shark, and air and wreckage and human beings erupted in a howling cyclone.

But that was only one of eight such grasers. Every one of them scored direct hits, and no one on the battlecruiser had dreamed a converted merchantman could mount such weapons. Her communication circuits were a cacophony of screams—of agony, of shock, of terror—as Wayfarer's fury rent her like a toy, and then the Q-ship's missiles came blasting in, stabbing her again and again with bomb-pumped lasers to complete the grasers' dreadful work.

cthia wrote:
Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Pretty sure that's a misinterpretation on your part (though to be fair we rarely see warships in energy range of each other - so there aren't a lot of times to have seen this) and I see tlb already provided one bit of text-ev showing multiple grasers targeting a single ship.


The Honorverse ships were initially modeled, loosely, on age of sail ships of the line and like them would be blazing away with every gun that will bear once they reach cannon (err, graser) range. So a warship would aim and fire every laser and graser on its broadside at its target.

The one exception I can think of might be anti-LAC defense where the large number of smaller ships might encourage a warship to split its energy fire across multiple LACs.