The Torch Wormhole

Brigade XO wrote:As to forts being a waste, that doesn't count that when the Alignment does start using that wormhole for anything, they will want it defended on that side and have the equivlent of an Astro Control station for it. Even after they eventualy "deal" with Torch, it represents an access to something they want hidden and very few people outside the Alignment know exactly what you are going to find on the other side. Staff the forts mostly with Dariusians and an Alpha Command staff. Cheap enough insurance to act as a rat-trap for any ship that comes through without permission.

It's a guard force, do the same thing as Manticoer and move the modular sections of the forts there for assembly (more workforce training) and some place where you could put pods with Cataphracts at short removes to thicken coverage and extend the range against anything that might fight it's way through.

It's also a location for a protected logistics support base at a fair distance from Darius. It's not like the Alignment can't aquire the amount of trained staff to install and operate warehouses and even a small repair yard plus a waystation and R&R faciity. Eventualy this is a nodal point for the Alighment Empire next to Erwhon and both Erwhon's wormhole access to the (eventualy to be the Former) SL but the Maya sector. You put the good stuff behind the door.

There's one minor downside to putting your repair yard on the far side of a wormhole; but it can be mitigated. And as you say there are security advantages to having it "behind the door".

The minor downside is ships with damage to their alpha nodes (or whatever the MAN spider ships use to safely transit wormholes) or hyper generators. Most systems aren't in a grav wave and so damaged ships can still retreat through hyper with damaged alpha nodes (they just need to avoid any grav waves). Even if they lose their hyper generator they can potentially still retreat by having a buddy expand their generator volume large enough to bring them both into (and later out of) hyper. But it doesn't seem to be possible to transit a wormhole without both working sails and hyper generator of your own. So if MAN ships get damaged and fall back on Congo to reach a repair yard at The Twins they won't be able to get to it. They could potentially go the long way - but if you could avoid having that systems actual location in their computers then you eliminate one way your enemies might find it; plus it's undoubtedly a much longer trip for a damaged ship. The better workaround would be to have either a mobile repair ship or a ship-carrying ship based in The Twins that could pop forward to Congo and either patch up or bring back any damaged units that made it that far.

We saw this transit problem firsthand with the delay in getting Hexapuma back to Manticore after the Battle of Monica. She needed months with a repair ship to patch her up enough to transit the wormhole under her own power (and then immediately went into the repair yard to finish the rest of her repairs)

Am I missing a reason the MA's support ships cannot be stealthy and forward deployed?

cthia wrote:Am I missing a reason the MA's support ships cannot be stealthy and forward deployed?

Mobile Repair yards are about as stealthy as downtown Manhattan.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:As to forts being a waste, that doesn't count that when the Alignment does start using that wormhole for anything, they will want it defended on that side and have the equivlent of an Astro Control station for it. Even after they eventualy "deal" with Torch, it represents an access to something they want hidden and very few people outside the Alignment know exactly what you are going to find on the other side. Staff the forts mostly with Dariusians and an Alpha Command staff. Cheap enough insurance to act as a rat-trap for any ship that comes through without permission.

It's a guard force, do the same thing as Manticoer and move the modular sections of the forts there for assembly (more workforce training) and some place where you could put pods with Cataphracts at short removes to thicken coverage and extend the range against anything that might fight it's way through.

It's also a location for a protected logistics support base at a fair distance from Darius. It's not like the Alignment can't aquire the amount of trained staff to install and operate warehouses and even a small repair yard plus a waystation and R&R faciity. Eventualy this is a nodal point for the Alighment Empire next to Erwhon and both Erwhon's wormhole access to the (eventualy to be the Former) SL but the Maya sector. You put the good stuff behind the door.

There's one minor downside to putting your repair yard on the far side of a wormhole; but it can be mitigated. And as you say there are security advantages to having it "behind the door".

The minor downside is ships with damage to their alpha nodes (or whatever the MAN spider ships use to safely transit wormholes) or hyper generators. Most systems aren't in a grav wave and so damaged ships can still retreat through hyper with damaged alpha nodes (they just need to avoid any grav waves). Even if they lose their hyper generator they can potentially still retreat by having a buddy expand their generator volume large enough to bring them both into (and later out of) hyper. But it doesn't seem to be possible to transit a wormhole without both working sails and hyper generator of your own. So if MAN ships get damaged and fall back on Congo to reach a repair yard at The Twins they won't be able to get to it. They could potentially go the long way - but if you could avoid having that systems actual location in their computers then you eliminate one way your enemies might find it; plus it's undoubtedly a much longer trip for a damaged ship. The better workaround would be to have either a mobile repair ship or a ship-carrying ship based in The Twins that could pop forward to Congo and either patch up or bring back any damaged units that made it that far.

We saw this transit problem firsthand with the delay in getting Hexapuma back to Manticore after the Battle of Monica. She needed months with a repair ship to patch her up enough to transit the wormhole under her own power (and then immediately went into the repair yard to finish the rest of her repairs)

The main problem with this is you still require the use of the wormhole in your planning. Yes, the yards and support ships may be safe from attack, but your op still requires that the wormhole be held open for your returning forces, requiring a strong covering force, and a far side door guard. If it was in unknown space, this would be a slight calculated risk - but it is a known wormhole, in a populated system, with powerful treaty partners.

Even if the stealth force shows up unseen and destroys every RTN ship, and wipes the planet clean with no witnesses. The odds are high that a treaty partner will visit soon. and if they see activity at the wormhole, they will return with enough force to close it permanently.... and hide in wait for the return of the vandals who used it. Even a simple minefield covering the entry and emergence vectors would pay havoc with a returning taskforce.

cthia wrote:Am I missing a reason the MA's support ships cannot be stealthy and forward deployed?

Theemile wrote:Mobile Repair yards are about as stealthy as downtown Manhattan.

In general support ships can be stealthy, but once you start making repairs or passing supplies then that stealthiness is going to be compromised. That is why you would prefer to be doing the support functions in areas that are outside possible opposition observation. That is also why the idea of stealthy ships routinely gathering at a base in the Torch system that is not under their control violates the military preference for the KISS principle.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Am I missing a reason the MA's support ships cannot be stealthy and forward deployed?

Mobile Repair yards are about as stealthy as downtown Manhattan.

Damn! Is the MA stealth that good? You can't see Manhattan farther than five miles away thru the smog.

Why would it be completely easy for the GA when entering the system to see what's going on at the junction, when a Dispatch Boat couldn't tell whether Forts were active when it transited the junction at Beowulf?

At any rate, if the attack on Torch happens, I'm allowing room for the MA to send forth huge ships to mine the system with extended range Cataphracts, mines and other MA conceived goods of proprietary tech. They can be ready to fortify the system as well as the MBS.

Also, when a snake is cornered, it strikes and it strikes hard, abandoning the rules of war. It is what the Japanese did, it is what the SLN did, it is most likely what the MA will do, especially when they have genetically engineered all humane tendencies out of their DNA. If they adopt a scorched Earth policy right off the bat, game over.

Plus, our dear author has the same dilemma he had when bringing the GA's problem with the Mandarins and SLN to its conclusion. How to do so without the GA - and the author himself by abject association - looking like completely murderous bastards.

cthia wrote:Damn! Is the MA stealth that good? You can't see Manhattan farther than five miles away thru the smog.

The smog is like jamming. You don't know what's there, but you know something is and is trying to hide.

Why would it be completely easy for the GA when entering the system to see what's going on at the junction, when a Dispatch Boat couldn't tell whether Forts were active when it transited the junction at Beowulf?

Because the DB did know. It couldn't not have known.

In any case, Manticoran sensors are better than the SLN's. But they wouldn't immediately know that there's something going on there. The WH is too far from the planet to scan with regular ship sensors. Someone would have to have the idea to drop by and take a look and that could be prompted by the scanner buoys that are usually there and/or the picket ship failing to check in via Hermes.

At any rate, if the attack on Torch happens, I'm allowing room for the MA to send forth huge ships to mine the system with extended range Cataphracts, mines and other MA conceived goods of proprietary tech. They can be ready to fortify the system as well as the MBS.

As I mentioned, the advantage around the wormhole is on GA tech. The defences are fixed and the attackers can simply transition back to hyperspace if any attack begins.

Retaking the planet is another story. There, the MAlign can pre-deploy stealth assets that begin acceleration at the same time as the GA ships and can attain a sufficient velocity to perform the attack when the ships are coming for zero-zero. There are ways to mitigate this, but we can't talk much about this without knowing what else the LDs can do.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Because the DB did know. It couldn't not have known.

You got textev? Because from that side of the junction, all roads led to ignorance.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:As to forts being a waste, that doesn't count that when the Alignment does start using that wormhole for anything, they will want it defended on that side and have the equivlent of an Astro Control station for it. Even after they eventualy "deal" with Torch, it represents an access to something they want hidden and very few people outside the Alignment know exactly what you are going to find on the other side. Staff the forts mostly with Dariusians and an Alpha Command staff. Cheap enough insurance to act as a rat-trap for any ship that comes through without permission.

It's a guard force, do the same thing as Manticoer and move the modular sections of the forts there for assembly (more workforce training) and some place where you could put pods with Cataphracts at short removes to thicken coverage and extend the range against anything that might fight it's way through.

It's also a location for a protected logistics support base at a fair distance from Darius. It's not like the Alignment can't aquire the amount of trained staff to install and operate warehouses and even a small repair yard plus a waystation and R&R faciity. Eventualy this is a nodal point for the Alighment Empire next to Erwhon and both Erwhon's wormhole access to the (eventualy to be the Former) SL but the Maya sector. You put the good stuff behind the door.

There's one minor downside to putting your repair yard on the far side of a wormhole; but it can be mitigated. And as you say there are security advantages to having it "behind the door".

The minor downside is ships with damage to their alpha nodes (or whatever the MAN spider ships use to safely transit wormholes) or hyper generators. Most systems aren't in a grav wave and so damaged ships can still retreat through hyper with damaged alpha nodes (they just need to avoid any grav waves). Even if they lose their hyper generator they can potentially still retreat by having a buddy expand their generator volume large enough to bring them both into (and later out of) hyper. But it doesn't seem to be possible to transit a wormhole without both working sails and hyper generator of your own. So if MAN ships get damaged and fall back on Congo to reach a repair yard at The Twins they won't be able to get to it. They could potentially go the long way - but if you could avoid having that systems actual location in their computers then you eliminate one way your enemies might find it; plus it's undoubtedly a much longer trip for a damaged ship. The better workaround would be to have either a mobile repair ship or a ship-carrying ship based in The Twins that could pop forward to Congo and either patch up or bring back any damaged units that made it that far.

We saw this transit problem firsthand with the delay in getting Hexapuma back to Manticore after the Battle of Monica. She needed months with a repair ship to patch her up enough to transit the wormhole under her own power (and then immediately went into the repair yard to finish the rest of her repairs)

Theemile wrote:The main problem with this is you still require the use of the wormhole in your planning. Yes, the yards and support ships may be safe from attack, but your op still requires that the wormhole be held open for your returning forces, requiring a strong covering force, and a far side door guard. If it was in unknown space, this would be a slight calculated risk - but it is a known wormhole, in a populated system, with powerful treaty partners.

Even if the stealth force shows up unseen and destroys every RTN ship, and wipes the planet clean with no witnesses. The odds are high that a treaty partner will visit soon. and if they see activity at the wormhole, they will return with enough force to close it permanently.... and hide in wait for the return of the vandals who used it. Even a simple minefield covering the entry and emergence vectors would pay havoc with a returning taskforce.

It is difficult to think the MA doesn't have plans to seize that end of the wormhole. This is not the era of not knowing the value of wormholes. It is like leaving your back door open, unlocked and unguarded with no plans to close and secure it.

I question whether anyone will be able to tell what is going on at the wormhole. Only THAT something is going on. Probes will be destroyed.

The Battle of Torch will answer the forum's biggest question. "Whose stealth is better?"