The Torch Wormhole

cthia wrote:
#2. Torch should be taken only after the Streak Boat arrives with confirmation the fireworks have begun. Torch is the least defended. Getting word to her will be too little too late. Also, I am not proposing the move on Haven will be based out of Torch. I am proposing the support of the operation to be based out of Torch by deploying units forward to take the wormhole and allow for other forces to come thru.

BTW, I am also positing the coordination of the traditional warships of the RFN. Like everyone agrees, their original plan is kaput. They may decide to permanently take Torch and set up housekeeping with their RFN. Why are you all assuming it would be easy to retake Torch? The GA's goodies are not located in the Torch system. And I'm sure the MA will shoot the ass off of anything trying to drag in huge detection arrays to detect the Lennys. Why can't the Torch whj be just as difficult to take as the MWJ, if the RFN is just as formidable as the GA? If not, they can always be ready to pull a Houdini thru the wormhole.

Thanks for clarifying. I'd misunderstood your earlier posts and that led to us somewhat talking past each other.

And I don't know that Torch would be easy to retake. But if the only place you know the enemy is is occupying Torch then at least is a place were you can try hitting back. Whereas until Darius is located Haven and Manticore would be just as unable to launch a counterattack to a Oyster Bay redux as Manticore and Grayson were to the original. Very hard to hit back when you've no idea where the enemy is.

That said, it might be to the MAlign's benefit to expose an (ultimately expendable) target like Torch as it could give their Lenny Dets (once resupplied from the initial strikes) a place to attempt to ambush naval units that couldn't be caught during the initial strikes. Even if they end up temporarily yielding the system and terminus it's give them a chance to try and further bleed the Grand Alliance forces.
(AKA It's a trap!)

Though I'd say Torch would be difficult to retake in an entirely different way than the Manticoran Junction. The Junction is deadliest to attack by transiting from a remote terminus (basically suicide). But even in normal space it's defended by a significant number of the most modern forts anybody has ever seen - which by now should be equipped with full Apollo capabilities. They should by now be at least as capable as the forts installed on the Lynx terminus and before Apollo was added to either side those Lynx forts were supposed to be able to stand off a couple hundred RMN SD(P)s!

We know that the MAlign hasn't yet shown any ability to replicate the performance or FTL fire control of Apollo. And they likely won't have time to construct significant numbers of modern forts at the Torch terminus. So the GA forces wouldn't face that exact defense, and they'd definitely be attacking from normal space because even if crazy enough to want to mount a wormhole assault through the terminus they don't know where the other end of the Congo wormhole is.

On the other hand, the MAlign have ships and graser torps that are virtually undetectable, and can drop Cataphract pods to act as minefields, and with nothing in the system that must be defended at all costs they can afford to play a slower ambush game - because they don't have to make a last stand anywhere. After all, what does it mater if the Grand Alliance forces blockage the terminus or occupy Torch orbit? That just ties them to one spot for the MAlign units to sneak up on.

A few food for thoughts: with the assumption that the Torch Wormhole (as is thought) does have three termini. Here goes:

1. Does the MAlign have all the junctions covered?
2. Given that the non-token MSN blasted the Harvest Joy, and that there
are crew-rotations, did the RMN/Haven forces capture anyone that
was on those ships?

And finally #3... the Detweilers being rather vengeant: Does anyone think that the Mesa won't try another Eridani-style turn the planet into a lifeless billiard ball now that the SLN 900# gorilla has no teeth?

Guess we'll have to wait and see, no?

SharkHunter wrote: Given that the non-token MSN blasted the Harvest Joy, and that there are crew-rotations, did the RMN/Haven forces capture anyone that was on those ships?

So far as I remember, Mannerheim System-Defense Force ships blasted the Harvest Joy. The RMN/Haven forces have no idea what happened and so could not possibly have captured anyone involved.

Now there were some officers of the Mesan Navy captured when the State Sec forces in Exile failed in their attack on Torch. I have long wondered what has been the result of the interrogation of those officers.

But, as you say, we will have to wait and see.

I think we should consider that the author could arrange it so one end of an MA junction could terminate at an advantageous strategic location in GA space. The Peeps struck out on that accord when they discovered the new junction in Sanctuary space, which has no strategic value. But things could be different for the MA. Just like Beowulf's terminus is terminating into Sol space, it would be quite interesting if the MA discovered they have the same advantage.

tlb wrote:

SharkHunter wrote: Given that the non-token MSN blasted the Harvest Joy, and that there are crew-rotations, did the RMN/Haven forces capture anyone that was on those ships?

So far as I remember, Mannerheim System-Defense Force ships blasted the Harvest Joy. The RMN/Haven forces have no idea what happened and so could not possibly have captured anyone involved.

Now there were some officers of the Mesan Navy captured when the State Sec forces in Exile failed in their attack on Torch. I have long wondered what has been the result of the interrogation of those officers.

But, as you say, we will have to wait and see.

There were presumably also some Mesan Space Navy officers and crew captures after Henke took Mesa.

But you're right that the ships sent forward, under Commodore Jérôme Ganneau, were BCs from the Mannerheim System-Defense Force. IIRC a few officers were secretly members of the Mesan Alignment Navy, but that was in addition to being part of the Mannerheim SDF. Since nobody there was from the clueless Mesan Space Navy nobody with knowledge of the ambush should have been anywhere near Mesa when the system fell.

That means the odds that Manticore managed to fortuitously scoop up someone who even knows the Harvest Joy was ambushed, much less any specific details, is vanishingly remote.

cthia wrote:The Peeps struck out on that accord when they discovered the new junction in Sanctuary space, which has no strategic value.

On the contrary, Bolthole has had tremendous strategic value by giving Haven an invulnerable military-industrial complex.

Consider how different it could have been for Manticore, if Oyster Bay had been impossible. On the other hand, KZT keeps pointing out that Manticore has in no way suffered from the Yawata Strike like it realistically should have.

SharkHunter wrote:A few food for thoughts: with the assumption that the Torch Wormhole (as is thought) does have three termini. Here goes:

1. Does the MAlign have all the junctions covered?
2. Given that the non-token MSN blasted the Harvest Joy, and that there
are crew-rotations, did the RMN/Haven forces capture anyone that
was on those ships?

And finally #3... the Detweilers being rather vengeant: Does anyone think that the Mesa won't try another Eridani-style turn the planet into a lifeless billiard ball now that the SLN 900# gorilla has no teeth?

Guess we'll have to wait and see, no?

We know the Torch wormhole is a bridge (2 termini, no junction) to the system informally known as the Twins. It is not a junction with multiple termini - that was just a cover story. It is instead an astronomical anomaly, with a 2nd, unrelated wormhole termini also in the Twins system. This connects to the Felix wormhole, which also has termini in Darius, and 2 unnamed systems. This "system" connects 6 separate systems (Torch, Twins, Felix, Darius and 2 additional termini.)

1) The only systems mentioned to have coverage were:

The Twins terminus of the Torch/Twins bridge - mobile units - BC squadron.
The Felix Junction - mobile units of the Mannerheim 2nd? Fleet (DN level assets)

It was mentioned that the Twin force was a temporary deployment because the MAlign had knowledge of the Harvest Joy's movement schedule, not permanent.

2) The force that hit the Harvest Joy was a Mannerheim taskforce, not Mesan, so no, zero chance.

3) Torch will probably be a focal point of conflict - for the obvious reasons. unfortunately, Maya and Erewhon will both soon have podlayers, and Manticore and Haven suddenly have freed up some of their capital ships, so they may deploy some on training maneuvers to the sector. So burning it down may become much less easy.

Not so sure you want to bring any kind of Task Force out of the Torch end of the wormhole and head off in the direction of Haven. There have to be quieter and less dramatic ways to send one to Haven....and then there is Manticore and Erwhon - which are closer.

We don't know where the two "unknown" termini of Felix lead.

You want to destroy Torch as an effective thorn in the side of the Alignment? One Shark and a Ghost stealth-scout. Grazer Torps on exterior mounts of the Shark and ballistic packages in the cargo bays. You have one planet and you don't care about either the effects or consequences of an EE violation so you hit it with something comming in really fast in ballistic mode and perhaps light off a drive about 30 miles from the atmosphear to slam it in harder.

Torch has ONE station and may or may not have much else in orbit as manufacturing or warehousing. Ballistic weapons package from same shark (or a GT- for slicing & dicing) and that station is no where near as large as any of the named stations for Manticore

Who did it? Well, the survivors on ships not targeted by ballictic weapons in detarched yards or long term parking orbits. will only be able to give you more or less the same visual and perhaps some sensor readings as with Oyster Bay at Manticore--- looks like the same weapons and tactics.
The Alignment grand end-game ROMETHEUS. Of which Oyster Bay (lite) was a massivly scaled down single one of it's operations.

At the moment, only using Felix, you would have to move a very large number of ships from Darius to Felix and then both send some of them off through hyperspace (with whatever limitations Spider Drive ships have and turn around a bunch of them and feed them through the Felix wormhole on entry vectors to possibly both the "unknown" termini locations and out to The Twins to park the force to use the Torch wormhole on the Twins side.

How many ships, How many target systems (and other things). How many are any of the Spider Drive ambush/sneak attack variety and how many are conventional warships for various duties. Also, how many are arsenal and supply ships (of either Spider or conventional drive) to be waiting at logistics points for resupply and support?

How big is the Alignment Navy? How many 1st round targets for the "big" strike and will that have to be as coordinated as the opening rounds by Haven of either half of the Haven-Manticore war over what sounds like a massivly larger theater.
Oh, yeah- gonna want to hit the Andermani as well, probably that Jedean League and the Maya Autonomous Sector should get swatted along with Erwhon.

Are they going to wait till the RF builds out to whatever level was origianly projected? Just how much can the Mannerheim and other intial (secret) member of the RF presently contribute to the RF's ability to "stabilize" the area which it is protecting in it's defensive alliance?

So many questions.

cthia wrote:#2. Torch should be taken only after the Streak Boat arrives with confirmation the fireworks have begun. Torch is the least defended. Getting word to her will be too little too late. Also, I am not proposing the move on Haven will be based out of Torch. I am proposing the support of the operation to be based out of Torch by deploying units forward to take the wormhole and allow for other forces to come thru.

What operation is going to be executed after the Haven Sector is trashed?

BTW, I am also positing the coordination of the traditional warships of the RFN. Like everyone agrees, their original plan is kaput. They may decide to permanently take Torch and set up housekeeping with their RFN. Why are you all assuming it would be easy to retake Torch? The GA's goodies are not located in the Torch system. And I'm sure the MA will shoot the ass off of anything trying to drag in huge detection arrays to detect the Lennys. Why can't the Torch whj be just as difficult to take as the MWJ, if the RFN is just as formidable as the GA? If not, they can always be ready to pull a Houdini thru the wormhole.

That is a horrible idea for the members of the RF. Their identities and locations are known. As soon as the GA or the SL discovers that the RF is cooperating with the MAlign, the RF members get a visit that ends their independence. I suppose one could try the "it's a trap!" strategy and pre-place stealthed defence assets in those systems, but the GA wouldn't come in dumb and happy: they'd be coming because they know these systems are aligned with the guys who had good stealth and produced the Yawata and Beowulf Strikes.

It's horrible enough that the Alpha Line leaders of those systems could decide to turn coat. They might have "gone native." And if not, the population isn't Alignment, so they can overthrow their leaders before records are eliminated.

As for the retaking, the important aspect is that stealth is quite limited if the enemy knows where you roughly have to be. They can dedicate a lot of scanning power to find you and the law of averages says they'll eventually do so. A wormhole terminus is a very fixed location and has a tiny (comparatively) hyper limit.

If the GA comes loaded for bear, is the MAN prepared to resist? How much? To answer that, we need to answer why they want to keep that beachhead in the first place.

The RF is going to concentrate on growing on it's original couple of members (they would be smart for only a few- say 4- of the original list are in the 1st public formation and then add more plus some systems outside of the original Faction
Remember, this is also a seed operation to spread the Alignment philosophies on genetic manipulation and all sorts of other things plus gather in disaffeted SL systems and independents. They are going to play nice for a relativly long time if the Plan is to work out with the RF haveing cooped many other systems to support the Detweiler ideals and work for it (they will not know they are part of the Alignment just like all those "Mesan Alignment" people who suddenly surfaced on Mesa are only yet another layer of misdirection.

Keeping the Mannerheim BC squadron on the Twins of the Torch wormhole could have long since been replaced by the type of Junction Forts that Manticore has on their junction.
Perhaps not as large in each case and given that there is only one wormhole leading in they won't need to cover multiple emergence vectors. If they are sitting right on top of the exit vector into the Twins system and you add mines and other goodies that should stop an SD.
Why would anybody want to do a mass transit with several SD through that wormhole before anybody in their camp had any useful readings on a successful transit? Not logical.
As to forts being a waste, that doesn't count that when the Alignment does start using that wormhole for anything, they will want it defended on that side and have the equivlent of an Astro Control station for it. Even after they eventualy "deal" with Torch, it represents an access to something they want hidden and very few people outside the Alignment know exactly what you are going to find on the other side. Staff the forts mostly with Dariusians and an Alpha Command staff. Cheap enough insurance to act as a rat-trap for any ship that comes through without permission.

It's a guard force, do the same thing as Manticoer and move the modular sections of the forts there for assembly (more workforce training) and some place where you could put pods with Cataphracts at short removes to thicken coverage and extend the range against anything that might fight it's way through.

It's also a location for a protected logistics support base at a fair distance from Darius. It's not like the Alignment can't aquire the amount of trained staff to install and operate warehouses and even a small repair yard plus a waystation and R&R faciity. Eventualy this is a nodal point for the Alighment Empire next to Erwhon and both Erwhon's wormhole access to the (eventualy to be the Former) SL but the Maya sector. You put the good stuff behind the door.