The Torch Wormhole

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

ZVar wrote:That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:You don't need sails to transition to hyperspace; you need sails to survive a gravity wave (a number of systems are embedded in gravity waves and thus ships visiting those systems emerge with sail up). Wormholes are a type of gravity wave and thus sails are necessary for transit.

Theemile wrote:I asked David about the sails and Spider drives and got the answer "why whould the Mesa not design a ship to use gravity waves?" While still open ended, most everyone took that to believe that Spider ships CAN use Gravity waves and wormholes.

ZVar wrote:That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:You don't need sails to transition to hyperspace; you need sails to survive a gravity wave (a number of systems are embedded in gravity waves and thus ships visiting those systems emerge with sail up). Wormholes are a type of gravity wave and thus sails are necessary for transit.

Theemile wrote:I asked David about the sails and Spider drives and got the answer "why whould the Mesa not design a ship to use gravity waves?" While still open ended, most everyone took that to believe that Spider ships CAN use Gravity waves and wormholes.

tlb wrote:That does not necessarily mean that they would have a compensator. Not having one would make them slower in hyperspace, but if they had the streak drive that would make up for some of the loss.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:What manner of strategist are ye?

The LDs will already be in the system performing the first legs of their mission, scouting, jockeying for position and gathering data. A single frigate will get it's friggin' ass shot off! The opening stages of a blindsided attack is always devastating. You can't prepare for something you don't know is coming. And you can't defend against something you can't see. Anything in the system will be bynged, in record time.

I keep hearing about the mistake of disclosing the secret of the wormhole. That secret is going to fall on its own without MAlign intervention. Heck, the ghosthunters will probably turn up the paperwork of the original data on the wormholes Detweiler somehow managed to have misfiled.

And what is this notion of the MA being trapped trying to defend Torch once they seize it??? They will certainly mine the hell out of the system with unprecedented goodies just daring the MA to poke it's nose back in. Their freighters will probably be huge.

And, if push comes to shove, they can all transit back thru like a turtle retracting it's head. The GA can't follow even if it wanted to. And believe me, they don't want to, said the spider to the fly.

Besides, they only want to hold the system until business, and Torch, is well done. Torch is their burning desire.

Yes of course they can launch an attack through hyper on Torch. But if we take your earlier statement that they'll base the operations on Haven out of Torch that seems to impose the following timeline.

* Send Lenny Dets to Torch
* A few months later arrive, attack, and seize the wormhole. Some ship likely escapes with the news
* Use the wormhole to rush forward logistics/reinforcements from Darius
* Lenny Dets now based out of Torch head off to Haven systems
* Lenny Dets arrive weeks later and being their couple month infiltration into the major Haven systems
* Warning arrives of the attack on Torch by undetectable ships; raising alarms about this petite Oyster Bay seizing a terminus to unknown location and putting the targets on high alert.

So seizing Torch first by attacking through Hyper fails to save any time and in fact likely puts the Haven systems you want simultaneously attacked on higher alert. And now these ships have a known base area that can be attacked.

Torch is therefore, to my mind, counter productive to seize as a base prior to operations against Haven (which was how I understood your earlier suggestion).




Now certainly as a simultaneous target, or follow-up target (possibly by the forces returning from the main strikes), it doesn't have the risk of alerting the major Haven systems. But then as I said before it's not your base for those operations.


Some of the confusion is it seems unclear exactly what you are suggesting. Certainly Torch could be seized and used as a base of operations; there are trade-offs for that but it's doable. But then you said the MAlign should hit every major system simultaneously - which implies waiting until they've build up a vast force of Lenny Dets. But that simultaneous attack on everyone seems to obviate the need for follow-up operations that would benefit from a forward base and seizing a forward base beforhand risks tipping off those enemies (and as noted above doesn't seem to save any time)

Eventually they'll want to take Torch; but I don't think its immediate value nor the remaining Detweilers' anger towards it and its occupants are likely to make it the first target.

cthia wrote:I didn't leave anything unclear.

1) My original post asks if anyone else's spider senses are tingling regarding Torch. I went on to say I think Torch will be the new Grayson as far as several battles centered around her. That leg of it simply seems intuitive. See jtg452's post laying it all out.

2) What has everyone up in arms is my omission that the Mesan Alignment should adhere to a galactic coordination of force. But that, I presumed, is a given. Even the silly Sollies practiced that. Recall that famed Dispatch Boat?

I even think that if anyone can come close to a total galactic coordination of force, closer than most anyway, it is the MA, considering their Streak Drive. And especially if their series of junctions is amenable to operating totally inside the GA's lines of communication.

3) It would be silly if the MA didn't seek to destroy a lot of the superpowers when they finally come out of the shadows, while still wielding the element of surprise. That is when their attack and tech represents the most danger. Why should they allow the GA to get "back on balance?" Of all of the Navies thus far, the MA has the best chance of pulling off a short victorious war. At least one which accomplishes all of it's goals.

Which is what all of their strategy depend on - their ultimate goals in the endgame.

4) These are Alphas. They don't play fair. They are invisible. They don't mind killing wholesale. And they have nasty miniature robot assassins.

5) Knocking back the superpowers will afford the RF the time it needs to court the galaxy.

BTW, who knows how the report reads regarding the Alignment's final plan for Beowulf.

The reality is Torch is sitting atop a dormant volcano that can become active and spew out hot warships at any time.

At any rate, any way you butter it, Torch is toast.

Jonathan_S wrote:The question is in the timing of it.

you still seem to be saying
1) Attack all superpowers simultaneously
2) Maintain element of surprise
3) Base those superpower attack out of Torch

But I don't see any way you have have all 3 because making Torch the base for the superpower attacks costs much of the element of surprise. The attacks against superpowers require a multi-month sneak in period, so to launch them from Torch you first need to capture Torch (easy enough) several months before attacking the superpowers. And word will get out and raise alarm.

OTOH its certainly possible to have the fist pair if you delay the attack on Torch to be simultaneous with, or following after, the surprise attack on the superpowers; but then it's not your base for those attacks.

I don't doubt that (baring some sensor breakthrough by the Grand Alliance) the MAlign can schedule and perform nearly simultaneous attacks on multiple systems.

It's only that trio together that are confusing me; because I don't see any way to have all 3.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The question is in the timing of it.

you still seem to be saying
1) Attack all superpowers simultaneously
2) Maintain element of surprise
3) Base those superpower attack out of Torch

But I don't see any way you have have all 3 because making Torch the base for the superpower attacks costs much of the element of surprise. The attacks against superpowers require a multi-month sneak in period, so to launch them from Torch you first need to capture Torch (easy enough) several months before attacking the superpowers. And word will get out and raise alarm.

OTOH its certainly possible to have the fist pair if you delay the attack on Torch to be simultaneous with, or following after, the surprise attack on the superpowers; but then it's not your base for those attacks.

I don't doubt that (baring some sensor breakthrough by the Grand Alliance) the MAlign can schedule and perform nearly simultaneous attacks on multiple systems.

It's only that trio together that are confusing me; because I don't see any way to have all 3.

Plus, if they want Torch to be a base (rather than just a meeting place), then they have to freight in supplies, spares and repair equipment. They will also need hangers and housing for the security forces and other personnel.

Why do all of this in the open, instead of at the other end of the wormhole? That would only require security forces to maintain watch on the Torch end, while hiding everything else from the opposition.

cthia wrote:The multi-month sneak in period will be accomplished multi-months before the main party kicks off. Their initial mission will be one of scouting, just as any Navy. They will remain for the final hoorah.

And, why does the MA have to do any of this out in the open?

I see what the problem is. Both of you are still wearing a thinking cap fitted for the traditional weaponry of a traditional Navy operating under traditional paradigms. The MA is not strategically limited like other Navies who have to outright capture systems before they can use them as a base for operations. Remember, their ships operate under stealth, and can do so right under the enemy's nose. Several Lennys and several huge invisible colliers can be in-system for months if they wanted to, and if they need to. For whatever other nefarious purposes other than scouting and jockeying for position. Or. Just because they can.

What's in a name? Whether Torch suffers the slings and arrows of being used as a base or for a gathering place, either can be accomplished totally under the radar. Especially at Torch where there IS no windfall of Manty tech littering the system.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:The multi-month sneak in period will be accomplished multi-months before the main party kicks off. Their initial mission will be one of scouting, just as any Navy. They will remain for the final hoorah.

And, why does the MA have to do any of this out in the open?

I see what the problem is. Both of you are still wearing a thinking cap fitted for the traditional weaponry of a traditional Navy operating under traditional paradigms. The MA is not strategically limited like other Navies who have to outright capture systems before they can use them as a base for operations. Remember, their ships operate under stealth, and can do so right under the enemy's nose. Several Lennys and several huge invisible colliers can be in-system for months if they wanted to, and if they need to. For whatever other nefarious purposes other than scouting and jockeying for position. Or. Just because they can.

What's in a name? Whether Torch suffers the slings and arrows of being used as a base or for a gathering place, either can be accomplished totally under the radar. Especially at Torch where there IS no windfall of Manty tech littering the system.

???? What could possibly be the benefit of using Torch as a stealthy gathering place without controlling its wormhole?

To use the wormhole you have to destroy the defenders. You can't destroy the defenders without high risk that word of that will escape.

I mean ultimately yes they could meet there "just because". It'd be illogical to pick Torch as the rendezvous for an attack force traveling through hyper. It's out of the way and offers no benefit, and some downsides, over any number of totally unoccupied systems.


So sure, I guess I failed to apply sufficient illogic to the MAlign planning to even contemplate them going out of their way to use Torch as a secret stealth gathering point from which to base their attacks.