The Torch Wormhole

Brigade XO wrote:From The Twins it gets interesting. There is no intervening system/wormhole in the representation between The Twins and Torch. It is possible that there is no hyperspace voyage nessisary to get to a wormhole bridge to Torch but from what I remember thinking from what I read was that The Twins may mean that there are TWO wormholes at the system (seperate wormholes hence "the twins).

That's right. Here's the description from ToF

Torch of Freedom Ch. 50 wrote:It was actually only a lowly M8 dwarf, without a single planet to its name. Or, rather, to its number, for it had never achieved the dignity of the name all its own. It was simply SGC-902-36-G, a dim little star just this side of a "brown dwarf," of absolutely no particular interest to anyone and over forty light-years from the nearest inhabited star system.
It was also, however, home to a never before observed hyper-space phenomenon: a pair of wormhole termini, less than two light-minutes from one another and less than ten light-minutes from SGC-902-36-G itself. In fact, they were precisely 9.24 light-minutes from the star, which put them exactly on its hyper limit, and made them the only wormhole termini in the explored galaxy which were less than thirty light-minutes from a star.
[...]
In fact, the Alignment had literally stumbled across it in the course of surveying the wormhole junction associated with the Felix System, where Trajan's task force was currently exercising.
[...]
Felix was associated with a major wormhole junction. Not on anything like the scale of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, perhaps, but still considerably larger than most, with no less than four secondary termini.
They led to several interesting places (including the Darius System, which actually had been chosen as the site for the MAN's arsenal), and the Alignment had kept the Felix Junction's existence as "black" as they had the entire colony in Darius.

So yep, two separate termini in the system; but about 2 LM apart rather than being part of a Junction within the system. (Whereas in a Junction the separation is far less since the entire Juntion including it's hyper limit is less than a million km, 3.33 LS [OBS])

But I don't think we're told anything else about the other 2 remote termini. But the MAlign should know where they go; since they've had a couple centuries to study the Felix Junction.

Have just started rereading Torch of Freedom.....but, thank you , memoriy is an odd thing and when you have so many disparent things in there it becomes intesting not mixing stuff.

cthia wrote:I never said anything about attacking Torch first. Actually I said as a part of a galaxy wide simultaneous hit. I simply asked if anyone else's spider senses were tingling about Torch. The MA will attack Torch, IMO. As jtg452 said upstream, why not eliminate some sore spots.

Torch is going to take a few hits by being on Collin's bucket list like I mentioned as a possibility in the assassination thread.

Torch is on the hit list for all kinds of reasons- including important ones like it's the home of Anton Zilwiki and a frequent haunt of (gasp!) Black Victor, Himself.

Who, other than Honor herself, has done more damage to the MA than those two? As far as the Detweilers are concerned, they need killin' bad.

Taking those two out- along with trivial things like killing Jeremy X, taking out a member of the Manty royal family, crushing a freed genetic slave homeland, removing the home of an effective "commerce" raiding force like the RTN, etc....

It depends on whose thumb is on what side of the scale when the decision is made.

SDP's and Mycroft are great- if they have a target. Look at the Beuwulf attack and throw in a slow hyper translation from far out and a stealthy sublight approach. A little recon, a MA version of Mistletoe, a decoy force appearing just outside the limit to set things rolling, etc...

jtg452 wrote:Torch is on the hit list for all kinds of reasons- including important ones like it's the home of Anton Zilwiki and a frequent haunt of (gasp!) Black Victor, Himself.

No doubt about that. The question is whether it's worth breaking the secrecy of the wormhole for.

I don't see it. Not even for cthia's idea of a Battle of the Sudden Flame where the MAN tries to overwhelm all its enemies. The wormhole is a chokepoint and presents a risk. As said above in the thread, a single frigate with a couple of missile pods is sufficient defence against any and all LDs trying to transit. There is no stealth during transit and your position is very known for a good time after that. Attempting to transit could cost a dozen capital ships.

As I mentioned upthread too, now the RTN and the GA have reason to suspect the wormhole. When Harvest Joy transited, they knew nothing about the MAlign. Remember that Queen Berry was reading the riot act to Dr. Jordin Kare for wanting to join the transit and that was the reason she was late for her assassination attempt. Cachat and Zilwicki had not yet returned with Dr. Simões.

Before that, the fact that information about the wormhole was incomplete and contradictory was just weird, with Manpower possibly holding back in order to negotiate a good deal. After the Alignment's existence is revealed, and especially after the fact they revealed they had a navy, all the reasons for which Manpower was holding on to Verdant Vista and losing money on it start to make sense. (To us, at least; maybe it isn't so obvious to those on the scene) So if I were the RTN, I'd station a ship near the wormhole or request the ESN or MARSN do so.

cthia wrote:If no one is guarding the wormhole, can invisible ships come thru undetected?

That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

ZVar wrote:That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

ZVar wrote:That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

You don't need sails to transition to hyperspace; you need sails to survive a gravity wave (a number of systems are embedded in gravity waves and thus ships visiting those systems emerge with sail up). Wormholes are a type of gravity wave and thus sails are necessary for transit.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Torch is on the hit list for all kinds of reasons- including important ones like it's the home of Anton Zilwiki and a frequent haunt of (gasp!) Black Victor, Himself.

No doubt about that. The question is whether it's worth breaking the secrecy of the wormhole for.

I don't see it. Not even for cthia's idea of a Battle of the Sudden Flame where the MAN tries to overwhelm all its enemies. The wormhole is a chokepoint and presents a risk. As said above in the thread, a single frigate with a couple of missile pods is sufficient defence against any and all LDs trying to transit. There is no stealth during transit and your position is very known for a good time after that. Attempting to transit could cost a dozen capital ships.

As I mentioned upthread too, now the RTN and the GA have reason to suspect the wormhole. When Harvest Joy transited, they knew nothing about the MAlign. Remember that Queen Berry was reading the riot act to Dr. Jordin Kare for wanting to join the transit and that was the reason she was late for her assassination attempt. Cachat and Zilwicki had not yet returned with Dr. Simões.

Before that, the fact that information about the wormhole was incomplete and contradictory was just weird, with Manpower possibly holding back in order to negotiate a good deal. After the Alignment's existence is revealed, and especially after the fact they revealed they had a navy, all the reasons for which Manpower was holding on to Verdant Vista and losing money on it start to make sense. (To us, at least; maybe it isn't so obvious to those on the scene) So if I were the RTN, I'd station a ship near the wormhole or request the ESN or MARSN do so.

What manner of strategist are ye?

The LDs will already be in the system performing the first legs of their mission, scouting, jockeying for position and gathering data. A single frigate will get it's friggin' ass shot off! The opening stages of a blindsided attack is always devastating. You can't prepare for something you don't know is coming. And you can't defend against something you can't see. Anything in the system will be bynged, in record time.

I keep hearing about the mistake of disclosing the secret of the wormhole. That secret is going to fall on its own without MAlign intervention. Heck, the ghosthunters will probably turn up the paperwork of the original data on the wormholes Detweiler somehow managed to have misfiled.

And what is this notion of the MA being trapped trying to defend Torch once they seize it??? They will certainly mine the hell out of the system with unprecedented goodies just daring the MA to poke it's nose back in. Their freighters will probably be huge.

And, if push comes to shove, they can all transit back thru like a turtle retracting it's head. The GA can't follow even if it wanted to. And believe me, they don't want to, said the spider to the fly.

Besides, they only want to hold the system until business, and Torch, is well done. Torch is their burning desire.

ZVar wrote:That got me wondering. Can a spider drive ship even use a wormhole? It would need the full compensators, alpha nodes (or beta, don't recall off hand) and does any of the MAlign units have that?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It definitely needs alpha nodes to generate a sail and transition to hyperspace. The Sharks translated into and out of hyperspace unaided, so it stands to reason they did have that. Besides, where would you carry a 6-million-tonne ship?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:You don't need sails to transition to hyperspace; you need sails to survive a gravity wave (a number of systems are embedded in gravity waves and thus ships visiting those systems emerge with sail up). Wormholes are a type of gravity wave and thus sails are necessary for transit.

I asked David about the sails and Spider drives and got the answer "why whould the Mesa not design a ship to use gravity waves?" While still open ended, most everyone took that to believe that Spider ships CAN use Gravity waves and wormholes.

cthia wrote:What manner of strategist are ye?

The LDs will already be in the system performing the first legs of their mission, scouting, jockeying for position and gathering data. A single frigate will get it's friggin' ass shot off! The opening stages of a blindsided attack is always devastating. You can't prepare for something you don't know is coming. And you can't defend against something you can't see. Anything in the system will be bynged, in record time.

I keep hearing about the mistake of disclosing the secret of the wormhole. That secret is going to fall on its own without MAlign intervention. Heck, the ghosthunters will probably turn up the paperwork of the original data on the wormholes Detweiler somehow managed to have misfiled.

And what is this notion of the MA being trapped trying to defend Torch once they seize it??? They will certainly mine the hell out of the system with unprecedented goodies just daring the MA to poke it's nose back in. Their freighters will probably be huge.

And, if push comes to shove, they can all transit back thru like a turtle retracting it's head. The GA can't follow even if it wanted to. And believe me, they don't want to, said the spider to the fly.

Besides, they only want to hold the system until business, and Torch, is well done. Torch is their burning desire.

Yes of course they can launch an attack through hyper on Torch. But if we take your earlier statement that they'll base the operations on Haven out of Torch that seems to impose the following timeline.

* Send Lenny Dets to Torch
* A few months later arrive, attack, and seize the wormhole. Some ship likely escapes with the news
* Use the wormhole to rush forward logistics/reinforcements from Darius
* Lenny Dets now based out of Torch head off to Haven systems
* Lenny Dets arrive weeks later and being their couple month infiltration into the major Haven systems
* Warning arrives of the attack on Torch by undetectable ships; raising alarms about this petite Oyster Bay seizing a terminus to unknown location and putting the targets on high alert.

So seizing Torch first by attacking through Hyper fails to save any time and in fact likely puts the Haven systems you want simultaneously attacked on higher alert. And now these ships have a known base area that can be attacked.

Torch is therefore, to my mind, counter productive to seize as a base prior to operations against Haven (which was how I understood your earlier suggestion).




Now certainly as a simultaneous target, or follow-up target (possibly by the forces returning from the main strikes), it doesn't have the risk of alerting the major Haven systems. But then as I said before it's not your base for those operations.


Some of the confusion is it seems unclear exactly what you are suggesting. Certainly Torch could be seized and used as a base of operations; there are trade-offs for that but it's doable. But then you said the MAlign should hit every major system simultaneously - which implies waiting until they've build up a vast force of Lenny Dets. But that simultaneous attack on everyone seems to obviate the need for follow-up operations that would benefit from a forward base and seizing a forward base beforhand risks tipping off those enemies (and as noted above doesn't seem to save any time)

Eventually they'll want to take Torch; but I don't think its immediate value nor the remaining Detweilers' anger towards it and its occupants are likely to make it the first target.