The Torch Wormhole

ZVar wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If the MAlign attack with enough forces to hit every major system simultaneously then they hardly need Torch - at least not to launch the attack.

Can't happen. I took years of planning and production to be able to mount Oyster Bay. And at that they were only ever able to do it by not hitting Haven as planned. And Haven has way too ship yards to hurt much. Plus Bolthole. They simply cannot do enough damage to do anything other then a minor speedbump in production capacity, and nothing to destroy the mobile units.

No, they simply don't have time now to make what's needed to launch an attack of scale. And unless Houdini works better than any plan in the history of mankind has ever worked all the MAlign plans fall apart when the GA show up at Darius. After all, it will only take one slaver ship captain/navigator wanting to bargain for their life to start the breadcrumb trail.

I don't think that'll happen either. But I was trying to show that even if it did somehow happen it still doesn't seem to make sense to attack Torch first.

Jonathan_S wrote:If the MAlign attack with enough forces to hit every major system simultaneously then they hardly need Torch - at least not to launch the attack.

ZVar wrote:Can't happen. I took years of planning and production to be able to mount Oyster Bay. And at that they were only ever able to do it by not hitting Haven as planned. And Haven has way too ship yards to hurt much. Plus Bolthole. They simply cannot do enough damage to do anything other then a minor speedbump in production capacity, and nothing to destroy the mobile units.

No, they simply don't have time now to make what's needed to launch an attack of scale. And unless Houdini works better than any plan in the history of mankind has ever worked all the MAlign plans fall apart when the GA show up at Darius. After all, it will only take one slaver ship captain/navigator wanting to bargain for their life to start the breadcrumb trail.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think that'll happen either. But I was trying to show that even if it did somehow happen it still doesn't seem to make sense to attack Torch first.

If memory serves, we calculated (from the data we have seen so far) that the Malign will not have a handful of Leonard Detweiler Classes completed until late 1925 at the earliest and a significant # fully worked up and deployable until 1927. Until then they are stuck with their ~2 dozen limited action Sharks as attack units. Unless things change, the crews they are working up are more important than the Sharks themselves. (The less experienced the crews, the longer it will take to effectively deploy the LDS.)

Using the Sharks on anything that might risk them (raiding another major system), or would provoke the Haven Alliance to change it's stance should be avoided. However, we've seen that the MAlign leadership is now behaving less than rational, so maybe they will start making serious mistakes through excess hubris.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If the MAlign attack with enough forces to hit every major system simultaneously then they hardly need Torch - at least not to launch the attack.

ZVar wrote:Can't happen. I took years of planning and production to be able to mount Oyster Bay. And at that they were only ever able to do it by not hitting Haven as planned. And Haven has way too ship yards to hurt much. Plus Bolthole. They simply cannot do enough damage to do anything other then a minor speedbump in production capacity, and nothing to destroy the mobile units.

No, they simply don't have time now to make what's needed to launch an attack of scale. And unless Houdini works better than any plan in the history of mankind has ever worked all the MAlign plans fall apart when the GA show up at Darius. After all, it will only take one slaver ship captain/navigator wanting to bargain for their life to start the breadcrumb trail.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think that'll happen either. But I was trying to show that even if it did somehow happen it still doesn't seem to make sense to attack Torch first.

If memory serves, we calculated (from the data we have seen so far) that the Malign will not have a handful of Leonard Detweiler Classes completed until late 1925 at the earliest and a significant # fully worked up and deployable until 1927. Until then they are stuck with their ~2 dozen limited action Sharks as attack units. Unless things change, the crews they are working up are more important than the Sharks themselves. (The less experienced the crews, the longer it will take to effectively deploy the LDS.)

Using the Sharks on anything that might risk them (raiding another major system), or would provoke the Haven Alliance to change it's stance should be avoided. However, we've seen that the MAlign leadership is now behaving less than rational, so maybe they will start making serious mistakes through excess hubris.

Things have changed. The author popped into one of my threads with the express purpose to tease me that they ARE ready.

A far BIGGER number than twenty eight Sharks, says the wiki. Confirmed ready by the author.

cthia wrote:Things have changed. The author popped into one of my threads with the express purpose to tease me that they ARE ready.

A far BIGGER number than twenty eight Sharks, says the wiki. Confirmed ready by the author.

which thead?

ZVar wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If the MAlign attack with enough forces to hit every major system simultaneously then they hardly need Torch - at least not to launch the attack.

Can't happen. I took years of planning and production to be able to mount Oyster Bay. And at that they were only ever able to do it by not hitting Haven as planned. And Haven has way too ship yards to hurt much. Plus Bolthole. They simply cannot do enough damage to do anything other then a minor speedbump in production capacity, and nothing to destroy the mobile units.

No, they simply don't have time now to make what's needed to launch an attack of scale. And unless Houdini works better than any plan in the history of mankind has ever worked all the MAlign plans fall apart when the GA show up at Darius. After all, it will only take one slaver ship captain/navigator wanting to bargain for their life to start the breadcrumb trail.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think that'll happen either. But I was trying to show that even if it did somehow happen it still doesn't seem to make sense to attack Torch first.

I never said anything about attacking Torch first. Actually I said as a part of a galaxy wide simultaneous hit. I simply asked if anyone else's spider senses were tingling about Torch. The MA will attack Torch, IMO. As jtg452 said upstream, why not eliminate some sore spots.

Torch is going to take a few hits by being on Collin's bucket list like I mentioned as a possibility in the assassination thread.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Things have changed. The author popped into one of my threads with the express purpose to tease me that they ARE ready.

A far BIGGER number than twenty eight Sharks, says the wiki. Confirmed ready by the author.

which thead?

Seventh post down.

cthia wrote:Things have changed. The author popped into one of my threads with the express purpose to tease me that they ARE ready.

A far BIGGER number than twenty eight Sharks, says the wiki. Confirmed ready by the author.

Theemile wrote:which thead?

cthia wrote:Seventh post down.

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Private message

cthia wrote:

And of course, the MA's tech was/is still unfinished. So who's to say how stealthy the final versions will be. Even before decades of more work. Or even what accompanying tech there will be.

I'd like to know how powerful the RFN will be.

Really?

I'll have to get back to you on that.

At some point.

I read that as saying the Stealth tech is complete and ready to field, as is the accoupling techs required for the LDs, not that there were completed fleets of ships.

We know the lead LDs hulls were almost 50% of the way finished in mid 1921 (after the forces from Oyster Bay had returned to Darius) and the lead ships were already "DN Sized" (or 5.5-7 Mtons). Which puts Completed ships in the 11-15 Million Ton category. As Mentioned elsewhere, their build tech pretty much equated Manticore's in 1900, which took ~36 months to build a 8 Mton SD, so we can assume that the build time on a LD is ~ 4-6 years, allowing the lead LDS to complete no earlier than mid 1923 - though lead ships usually take 20% longer to complete, pushing out construction into early 1924. Since "Lead ship" was used, they are not all being built at once, so one could assume another 6 months to 2 years to complete the rest. Throw in 6 months to work up a ship , and hat gives you the 1925-1927 range.

cthia wrote:Things have changed. The author popped into one of my threads with the express purpose to tease me that they ARE ready.

A far BIGGER number than twenty eight Sharks, says the wiki. Confirmed ready by the author.

Theemile wrote:which thead?

cthia wrote:Seventh post down.

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Private message

cthia wrote:

And of course, the MA's tech was/is still unfinished. So who's to say how stealthy the final versions will be. Even before decades of more work. Or even what accompanying tech there will be.

I'd like to know how powerful the RFN will be.

Really?

I'll have to get back to you on that.

At some point.

Theemile wrote:I read that as saying the Stealth tech is complete and ready to field, as is the accoupling techs required for the LDs, not that there were completed fleets of ships.

We know the lead LDs hulls were almost 50% of the way finished in mid 1921 (after the forces from Oyster Bay had returned to Darius) and the lead ships were already "DN Sized" (or 5.5-7 Mtons). Which puts Completed ships in the 11-15 Million Ton category. As Mentioned elsewhere, their build tech pretty much equated Manticore's in 1900, which took ~36 months to build a 8 Mton SD, so we can assume that the build time on a LD is ~ 4-6 years, allowing the lead LDS to complete no earlier than mid 1923 - though lead ships usually take 20% longer to complete, pushing out construction into early 1924. Since "Lead ship" was used, they are not all being built at once, so one could assume another 6 months to 2 years to complete the rest. Throw in 6 months to work up a ship , and hat gives you the 1925-1927 range.

Huh? The stealth tech has always been complete, pretty much? No one has gotten even more than a ghost of a look at it, for sure. So he couldn't have been talking about that, not when the context of my post centers on the Lennys. And even if he was referring to the tech itself, the tech is no more ready until it is installed, deployed and tested anymore than it would be with the RMN's tech. So, I raise you one stalk of celery.

Theemile, I've never associated you with denial.

cthia wrote:Huh? The stealth tech has always been complete, pretty much? No one has gotten even more than a ghost of a look at it, for sure. So he couldn't have been talking about that, not when the context of my post centers on the Lennys. And even if he was referring to the tech itself, the tech is no more ready until it is installed, deployed and tested anymore than it would be with the RMN's tech. So, I raise you one stalk of celery.

Theemile, I've never associated you with denial.

However, your comment was about stealth tech being finished. IT had nothing to do with ships, their #, or their completion. I can't see the logical jump to RFC's reply comment meaning that the MAN had a significant # of additional complete ships, especially LDs.

cthia wrote:And of course, the MA's tech was/is still unfinished. So who's to say how stealthy the final versions will be. Even before decades of more work. Or even what accompanying tech there will be.

I'd like to know how powerful the RFN will be.

runsforcelery wrote:Really?

I'll have to get back to you on that.

At some point.

It appears to me that he is replying to the statement "I'd like to know how powerful the RFN will be", with a teaser that he will let us know when the next book comes out.