Trump's Tax Return

WeberFan wrote:But to extend your comment about LINKING morality and legality.
- If we as a society determine that it's a morally good thing for everyone to have a college education but college debt is immoral, then OK. It should be free. But who pays for the college itself? Who pays for the professors at the college? Who pays for the infrastructure? Taxes?

Cost of college (or equivalent) in a couple of countries:

• Denmark: $0
• Estonia: $0
• Finland: $0
• Germany: $0
• Norway: $0
• Poland: $0
• Slovak Republic: $0
• Sweden: $0
• Turkey: $0
• United States: $8,202 (which happens to be

Sure, I cherry picked the countries that has $0 - but the point is, the USA has the highest tuition fees in the world and a host of other countries actually have a tuition fee that's 0 because the government carry the cost. It does mean higher taxes, but the potential future income-tax from people with a better education cover that cost many times over.

WeberFan wrote:- If there's a homeless person who decides to come live in your house, then the homeless person should be allowed to live in your house, along with 17 of his buddies, because it's immoral that homeless people should be homeless. And you should allow them to live in your house because it's immoral for them to be homeless.

Homelessness is a symptom of a social net that doesn't exist or doesn't work. It's a thorny problem to fix, because a lot of the reasons can be found in substance abuse or mental illness which has to be taken care of first. There are people who are homeless for the simple reason that they lost their employment, but many countries have a social net to can handle that specific problem so it's not an insurmountable problem.

WeberFan wrote:- If a person is sick, then the person should be able to get medical treatment. Not arguing that point. But who should pay for that medical treatment, and how much should they pay? Should medical personnel work for free? If a person has an incurable disease (based on current best technology), but could be kept alive artificially at a cost of $100 BILLION per year, then is it moral to do so at the cost of treating perhaps another million people who are sick?

Most developed countries handle these types of problems with for example single-payer systems which means the person getting treatment doesn't gut his or hers economy. When it comes to how much resources and money should be used to save a persons life, that's a very difficult question that doesn't have a clear-cut answer because it's all dependent who you ask.

My personal opinion is that we should expend a reasonable amount of resources to help people continue being productive members of society, but I can't quantify "reasonable" because it's dependent on the situation.

I think the question about morality is a difficult one. You could frame it as: 'it's not moral if it means that it negatively impacts more people than it benefits and it's definitely immoral if only one person benefits'. But that doesn't really nail it down either, because sometimes there is no good answer - damned if you do, damned if you don't. It also has a bearing to what people describe as 'the tyranny of the majority'.

The law is supposed to support society so it functions smoothly, to remove and rehabilitate people who choose to break the laws the society needs to function. So the question whether law and morality are just different sides of the same coin has to be answered with "yes, they are" - because without morality you have laws that are unfair. So just saying 'but it's legal' doesn't means it's morally right, and if it's not morally right the law is most likely unfair - unfair in the sense that only a select few benefit from it and that also usually means it's a detriment to society at large.

Joat42 wrote:Cost of college (or equivalent) in a couple of countries:

• Denmark: $0
• Estonia: $0
• Finland: $0
• Germany: $0
• Norway: $0
• Poland: $0
• Slovak Republic: $0
• Sweden: $0
• Turkey: $0
• United States: $8,202 (which happens to be

Sure, I cherry picked the countries that has $0 - but the point is, the USA has the highest tuition fees in the world and a host of other countries actually have a tuition fee that's 0 because the government carry the cost. It does mean higher taxes, but the potential future income-tax from people with a better education cover that cost many times over.

Add Russia - I graduated from the university, obtained first magister degree, then PhD, without paying a ruble, far less a dollar.

There are two things that would ultimately pay for themselves, public education and universal health care. Having a healthy, well educated, workforce would increase productivity and the overall wealth of any society many times over.

With public education, ours is working, but there are some huge holes in how it is working. There are schools that are in dramatic need of improvement if they are to provide the kids entrusted to their care with good education. Then too, high school is no longer sufficient in a modern economy. At minimum, there needs to be another two years, those first two years of college or trade school provided with tax dollars. Maybe it should go to four years. Think what happened to the GI bill after WW2 and how the economy exploded after that. We need to do that again, only this time include everyone, not just vets.

As for healthcare, about 80 to 85 percent of people are covered through either private insurance or through ins provided by employers. But the way we are doing it is so darned expensive. Our healthcare is the most expensive in the world without providing the same quality care for ordinary people that other industrial countries are accustomed to. Too much penny wise, pound foolish sort of thinking. Then there is that 15 - 20 percent of folks who are left out for whatever reason. Not a good thing. They end up being freeloaders the cost of whose care gets thrust back on the rest of us. However it ends up being managed in the end, everybody has to be included and all taxpayers should have to pony up.

Don

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Dilandu wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Cost of college (or equivalent) in a couple of countries:

• Denmark: $0
• Estonia: $0
• Finland: $0
• Germany: $0
• Norway: $0
• Poland: $0
• Slovak Republic: $0
• Sweden: $0
• Turkey: $0
• United States: $8,202 (which happens to be

Sure, I cherry picked the countries that has $0 - but the point is, the USA has the highest tuition fees in the world and a host of other countries actually have a tuition fee that's 0 because the government carry the cost. It does mean higher taxes, but the potential future income-tax from people with a better education cover that cost many times over.

Add Russia - I graduated from the university, obtained first magister degree, then PhD, without paying a ruble, far less a dollar.

Curiosity question, Dilandu... What are your degrees in and your profession? Also, are you including living expenses or cost of books?

Don

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Dilandu wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Cost of college (or equivalent) in a couple of countries:

• Denmark: $0
• Estonia: $0
• Finland: $0
• Germany: $0
• Norway: $0
• Poland: $0
• Slovak Republic: $0
• Sweden: $0
• Turkey: $0
• United States: $8,202 (which happens to be

Sure, I cherry picked the countries that has $0 - but the point is, the USA has the highest tuition fees in the world and a host of other countries actually have a tuition fee that's 0 because the government carry the cost. It does mean higher taxes, but the potential future income-tax from people with a better education cover that cost many times over.

Add Russia - I graduated from the university, obtained first magister degree, then PhD, without paying a ruble, far less a dollar.

same here

sadly that is not true nowadays in the UK. We are falling down the US route

Nothing is free of cost.

The tertiary education referred to is only free at the point of use, the cost is covered by income from taxes.

George J. Smith wrote:Nothing is free of cost.

The tertiary education referred to is only free at the point of use, the cost is covered by income from taxes.

I assure you that absolutely everyone who ever discusses this topic knows that "free" refers to free at point of use... that that is paid for with tax revenue... and that it never requires pointing out.

George J. Smith wrote:Nothing is free of cost.

The tertiary education referred to is only free at the point of use, the cost is covered by income from taxes.

No it's not free. But the cost of education is an investment. If society picks up the tab, what it gets is a productive, useful member of society whose contribution is worth far more than the cost of his education.

Don

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n7axw wrote:
Curiosity question, Dilandu... What are your degrees in and your profession? Also, are you including living expenses or cost of books?

Don

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PhD in plant selection, currently working in agricultural institution on spring wheat selection.

Books were provided by University library, for free. Living expenses were not specifically required, since my university was in Moscow, too, and close enough to my home. But students from other towns were provided with dormitory.

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Curiosity question, Dilandu... What are your degrees in and your profession? Also, are you including living expenses or cost of books?

Don

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PhD in plant selection, currently working in agricultural institution on spring wheat selection.

Books were provided by University library, for free. Living expenses were not specifically required, since my university was in Moscow, too, and close enough to my home. But students from other towns were provided with dormitory.

Thanks. The church mostly picked up the tab on my education. I paid some the first year. But after that, I learned how to shake the scholarship tree and for the remaining time, I didn't pay a dime except books. The entire program was 8 years, four of college and four of seminary. My college degree was in liberal arts with an emphasis in classical languages. Seminary was, obviously enough I guess, in theology, pastoral care, and Bible. What the church got out of the deal was a parish pastor, officially retired, but currently active half time.

Don

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