Expansion of the Empire: where to?

tlb wrote:I have no knowledge, but it seems reasonable that the Renaissance Factor systems would need to be in close contact to the Core systems; if they are intended to serve as nucleation sites for the successor state to the League.

I don't think that's necessary. It may not even be desired, if the planned chaos would consume the core worlds more than the shell. Any core worlds that remained intact may serve as nucleation themselves, which would be competition for the RF. So it could be that the plan would cause far more devastation in the Core and thus a wider separation for the RF would be advisable.

Still, if they are not a cluster of systems, how do they support each other?

I think Refuge is the planet where Abigal fights the Pirates, Settled by a religious group out of Haven but in the Erwon, Torch area since the Pirate group were there as the Alignment's security team for Verdant Vista - even if they did not know that.

So joining that group or Haven.

Now that Grayson is such a large player on the interplanatary scale - with a significant fleet and a boosted economy I wonder how their economic footffall will expand. It is clear that during the High Ridge era they were very active on the Dimplomatic Front. Also how many of the Protector's Own came as Refugee's from Havenite conquests ? Will they lead the diplomatic front as any of those worlds choose to become independant and remain so. i.e. seek Grayson as a protector to prevent being absorbed by the two local superpowers. Much more about economics than politics here.

Captain Golding (GSN)>

Captain Golding wrote:I think Refuge is the planet where Abigal fights the Pirates, Settled by a religious group out of Haven but in the Erwon, Torch area since the Pirate group were there as the Alignment's security team for Verdant Vista - even if they did not know that.

So joining that group or Haven.

Interesting, I had to recheck to see that you were right; however that is also the name of the system at Bolthole.

Of the two, Bolthole is much more likely to form an alliance or something more substantial; because the people in the Tiberian system are a religious sect looking to minimize contact with the outside cultures. From The Service of the Sword in the book of the same name:

"My point," he went on, apparently blissfully unaware of—or, at least, completely unconcerned by—his midshipwoman's blistering resentment, "is that the Refugians don't like outsiders. And that outsiders, like the Erewhonese, may not make sufficient allowance for that when they try t' talk to them. It certainly appears to me that the Erewhonese who interviewed the planetary authorities after Star Warrior's disappearance didn't, at any rate. It's obvious the locals got their backs up. It may even have started when Star Warrior dropped in on them in the first place.
"But if Star Warrior disappeared because she discovered somethin' that led her t' the pirates and the pirates destroyed her, then Tiberian is the only place she could have done it. The system was her first port of call, and so far as we can determine, she never made it t' her second port of call at all. So if there is an actual chain of events, not just some fluke coincidence, between Star Warrior's investigation and her disappearance, Tiberian is the only place we can hope t' find out whatever she did.

tlb wrote:

Captain Golding wrote:I think Refuge is the planet where Abigal fights the Pirates, Settled by a religious group out of Haven but in the Erwon, Torch area since the Pirate group were there as the Alignment's security team for Verdant Vista - even if they did not know that.

So joining that group or Haven.

Interesting, I had to recheck to see that you were right; however that is also the name of the system at Bolthole.

Of the two, Bolthole is much more likely to form an alliance or something more substantial; because the people in the Tiberian system are a religious sect looking to minimize contact with the outside cultures. From The Service of the Sword in the book of the same name:

"My point," he went on, apparently blissfully unaware of—or, at least, completely unconcerned by—his midshipwoman's blistering resentment, "is that the Refugians don't like outsiders. And that outsiders, like the Erewhonese, may not make sufficient allowance for that when they try t' talk to them. It certainly appears to me that the Erewhonese who interviewed the planetary authorities after Star Warrior's disappearance didn't, at any rate. It's obvious the locals got their backs up. It may even have started when Star Warrior dropped in on them in the first place.
"But if Star Warrior disappeared because she discovered somethin' that led her t' the pirates and the pirates destroyed her, then Tiberian is the only place she could have done it. The system was her first port of call, and so far as we can determine, she never made it t' her second port of call at all. So if there is an actual chain of events, not just some fluke coincidence, between Star Warrior's investigation and her disappearance, Tiberian is the only place we can hope t' find out whatever she did.

You are thinking about Sanctuary, the planet in the Refuge system - aka Bolthole.

tlb wrote:that is also the name of the system at Bolthole.

Theemile wrote:You are thinking about Sanctuary, the planet in the Refuge system - aka Bolthole.

Yes, that is the name of the system. Refuge is a planet in the Tiberian System and Sanctuary is a planet in the Refuge system. Bolthole is the military-industrial complex.

tlb wrote:Yes, that is the name of the system. Refuge is a planet in the Tiberian System and Sanctuary is a planet in the Refuge system. Bolthole is the military-industrial complex.

And Talbot is a system in the Haven Sector (planet name not given), but Talbott is a System in the region previously known as Talbott Cluster, now Talbott Quadrant.

I also never remember if New Berlin is the system and New Potsdam the planet or the other way around.

Not to mention that "Landing" is the most common capital name.

This kind of confusion is actually what happens in real life. Something that might have to get cut from a TV series for simplicity (like the character of Robert Arryn, who was named for Robert Baratheon, was renamed as "Robin Arryn" in the TV series for Game of Thrones, and Asha Greyjoy was renamed Yara Greyjoy to avoid confusing her with Osha).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But asking doesn't obligate the SEM. Like Talbott, I really thought it had something to do with Manticore's long established Dudley Doright of the Galaxy image. Like the US once upon a time. The Galaxy's hero, if you will. IOW, all I could figure is Manticore had a long cultivated reputation to nurture. But still, there are limits. Although, long term studies of real estate may reveal strategic and or economic advantages. I also considered that poor quadrants were poor only because they were being bled to death by the SL, and piracy.

It doesn't, but Manticore must respond and the answer must be fair. And you know the rejection will be met with "why them and not us?" So we need to answer why Talbott first in order to understand what circumstances made their annexation acceptable before we can dismiss expansion elsewhere.

As I said in the OP, the region most likely to request next is Matapan (provided that politically they were not founded with "we want to be away from you" in the first place). Coming in second would be other systems close to the MBS, but with the advent of the Manticore-Haven Federation, those may simply join that instead and retain some level of independence. What would make the Matapan Cluster any different from Talbott? I quite frankly can't see it.

Jonathan_S wrote:The only question is how tightly Mantipan might be tied to Asgard through their Junction - since that Junction also has a termini into the Matapan Cluster.

That might affect either their likelihood to request to join Manticore, or provide a reason for Manticore to demur (not wanting to be seen poaching in another government's area of interest)

Looking at a map and considering what we've learned from The |value| of captured enemy systems, Talbott seems to be the most forwardly deployed base between Peep space and the SEM. It would appear to be the first defensive position against Peep intrusion. Being it's a bigger base, it is likely to be bypassed. But it appears it can close the jaws as a pincer or flanking maneuver against Peep incursion. It seems to have been a buffer zone to prevent a Halsey(?) type of island hopping campaign. I wonder if Hancock Station responded to kick the Peeps out when they overran Candor and Minette.

Not only must they be fair, but they must be considerate as well - and I'm sure your thought included that - if we consider the fact that the RMN enjoyed basing rights there for so long and have invested a lot of resources in the area, officers and crew alike have bonded with a lot of the people there. And they have become amenable to and effected by their plight. Isn't Van Dort from the Region? It is awfully difficult to turn your back on suffering, especially when you are the protagonist of the galaxy.

Did someone say there is a newly discovered wormhole near Talbott?

cthia wrote:Looking at a map and considering what we've learned from The |value| of captured enemy systems, Talbott seems to be the most forwardly deployed base between Peep space and the SEM. It would appear to be the first defensive position against Peep intrusion. Being it's a bigger base, it is likely to be bypassed. But it appears it can close the jaws as a pincer or flanking maneuver against Peep incursion. It seems to have been a buffer zone to prevent a Halsey(?) type of island hopping campaign. I wonder if Hancock Station responded to kick the Peeps out when they overran Candor and Minette.

Not only must they be fair, but they must be considerate as well - and I'm sure your thought included that - if we consider the fact that the RMN enjoyed basing rights there for so long and have invested a lot of resources in the area, officers and crew alike have bonded with a lot of the people there. And they have become amenable to and effected by their plight. Isn't Van Dort from the Region? It is awfully difficult to turn your back on suffering, especially when you are the protagonist of the galaxy.

Did someone say there is a newly discovered wormhole near Talbott?

????
Van Dort was born on Rembrant in the Talbott Cluster; which yes is obviously not far from the newly discovered Lynx wormhole. But that's hundreds of lightyears from the Haven/Manticore Alliance boarder - and very nearly in directly the opposite direction.

Did you confuse the Talbott Cluster with the 1st war Manticoran ally of the Talbot System? The later is a single system polity that, yes, is between Haven and Manticore. But while they got virtually no mention in the book (after SVW where they're the site of the 4 Havenite BCs that accidentally tangle with HMS Bellerophon) they were apparently strong enough to have their own small SD capable shipyard and built their handful of SD. (I believe, that while FIE described the yard there as a Manty yard what would soon finish it's first SD that unlike the one at the uninhabited Grendelsbane it was actually a joint yard) [hmm, I see the wiki managed to leave them off the Manticoran Alliance page; despite having a Talbot System page that does correctly claim they're a member]

Apparently they were one of the systems left the alliance over High Ridges actions during the ceasefire. Unlike Grayson didn't have an inside track on the new ship/tech designs during the first war they got at most the Mantie-lite tech (like Erewhon); and possibly even less than that. In any case during the ceasefire, like all the allies, High Ridge cut them off from any tech transfer which in part led to them (like most of the alliance, going their own way -- and thus they sat out the 2nd war). And Manticore obviously didn't spend any money during the ceasefire upgrading that yard in someone else's star system. RFC told us that they ended up mothballing their military shipyard (rather than trying to upgrade it) -- I'd speculate that they might have over-strained their economy building up to resist Haven; so without Manticoran support they couldn't afford to keep it going.

I believe there's a mention somewhere that the Talbot System eventually fielded at least a full squadron or two of SD from their yard. But it seems they rarely, if ever, contributed forces away from their home system. But the defenses there must have been enough of a deterrence that despite their convenient location we never hear of them being attacked, except for that one pre-war raid that went so badly wrong. So they're luckier than the far weaker Alizon and Zanzibar systems.


But again, Van Dort and Lynx have nothing to do with the Talbot system. It's just a coincidentally similar name.

Jonathan_S wrote:<snip>

I believe there's a mention somewhere that the Talbot System eventually fielded at least a full squadron or two of SD from their yard. But it seems they rarely, if ever, contributed forces away from their home system. But the defenses there must have been enough of a deterrence that despite their convenient location we never hear of them being attacked, except for that one pre-war raid that went so badly wrong. So they're luckier than the far weaker Alizon and Zanzibar systems.


But again, Van Dort and Lynx have nothing to do with the Talbot system. It's just a coincidentally similar name.

The Talbot wall is just conjecture... but a solid one.

As Jonathan said, they had an SD shipyard in the 1st war, were Manty Alliance members, and produced SDs. They were mentioned as building Wallers in the same comment we were told Grendlesbane was producing them. So, at the time, it was presumed that it was a Manticorian yard building Manticorian SDs, similar to Grendlesbane.

Fast forward to The destruction of Grendlesbane, and there was no mention of Talbot or it's yard. Forward a little more and Oyster Bay was discussed, and myself and a couple of other were discussing every pace else Manticore had shipbuilding and ship repair resources (people to rebuild the stations, instances of the new construction tech, people trained to use it), and Talbot came up.

David said in reaction that Talbot never got a fair shake from High Ridge or the Cromarty Government, and never got ANY tech transfers to build ships, so when they were shown that the RMN govt was playing political games with the correspondance, they said enough - since Haven was asking them to stand out this war and signing a non-aggression pact with them, their security concerns (which had kept them in the Manty Alliance) were no longer valid, so they left the alliance.

(This is also why, when Haven was winning the 2nd war, Manticore considered dissolving the alliance and letting the smaller systems go - Haven proved it would leave them alone if they went neutral)

So, Talbot built wallers, but did not build wallers with Manticore high tech - So they could not be building spec standard Manticore pattern wallers, nor did Manticore field a separate Talbot (nerfed) waller class. So with Talbot building Wallers, they had to be building them for themselves, since we know of no other alliance navy fielding wallers without a known pedigree (Erewhon had SLN built DNs, and Grayson was fielding Ex-Havenite ships and home built SDs).

They had at least 10 years of construction, with the ~1907 comment stating that the yard would be completing a waller in the next month or 2, indicating that multiple ships should have been able to be built at the yard during the war, even if it had only 1 build slip. Given the time and the need, it is quite possible that they completed several squadrons in the 10 years...

But all we really know is Talbot built a standard tech SD in 1907 at their SD build yard - mothballed their yard after the 1st war, and stayed home for the 2nd war.

Mesa is relativly close to the Talbott Quadrant.
Visagoth is the closest wormhole to Mesa. Visagoth is (well, named but we are not sure it's yet a disclosed/announced member of the RF) Visagoth is very anti-genetic slavery which means that officilly would not let slavers use their wormhole but not clear if there was some level of smuggling going on. Mostly we see ships carrying slaves (and probably other things) head anywhere other than Visagoth to get -eventualy- where they need to go.


What kicked the Aligmenet into high gear (and it's long term plans very out of wack) was that new terminus of the Manticore Junction which is only a couple of light years from Lynx. While Haven was anti-slavery we have to consider that in the last 30 or 40 years Manticore has been of much grater involvement going after and enforcing anti-slavery laws.

It did sort of sound like that by the time that the Alignment decided to rush Oyster Bay, they had decided that taking out Manticore's (and Grayson's) infrastructure because having the Peeps defeated and Manticore become the one which would eventualy confront the SL was not going to meet the expectations of the plan. Peoples Republic of Haven would be a much better tool to break the SL (and get destroyed in doing it) leaving the RF to pick up the pieces and bring on the Ascendence of the Alignment as the pupetmaster of humanity.

But then comes the Lynx terminus and Manticore was ever so more an alternitive to OFS to those systems in the Cluster. The last thing the Alignment needed was Manticore to have a solid presence with several systems as part of it rathern then "just" trading partners. The biggest reason was the one they actualy helped be pushed forward when they started all the manipulation with Monica, then New Tuscany and manuvering Byng AND Crandall---remember they really were almost simultaneous missions framed as training etc maneuvers- to stop Manticore. Monica was the 1st ploy to grab the terminus and then bring OFS in with FF to "own" it. Then to shatter that little cluster of systems and use essentilay Crandall to take them and then go grap the terminus.
Why? To keep Manticore the hell away from that side of the shell/verge of the League and away from Mesa. We see what Henke did when it became apparent that Mesa was up to it's eyeballs in everything happing that was going badly in Talbott Quadrant even if many of the military actors were SLN.
Albrect just couldn't keep himself from being too cleaver and using large blunt interments to deal with this new developemnt. If he hadn't done that he might have gotten another 20 or more years with Manticore way to busy elsewhere to decide to send a fleet directly to Mesa.

Ah well.