Expansion of the Empire: where to?

Could the SK ever be in danger of its absorbed worlds becoming much bigger than itself, having a negative impact on the political structure of Manticore? Can the SEM grow to the size of Haven? Perhaps the SEM may come to need its own office of frontier security.

It could grow too large and wide spread that it would be impossible to protect the newly acquired territories in a time of war. Try spreading your ships that thin. Those newly absorbed worlds would be attacked first, revealing the weaknesses of the SEM.

And, why aren't we hearing about Haven claiming some of these territories for itself?

cthia wrote:And, why aren't we hearing about Haven claiming some of these territories for itself?

How precisely would that work?

The only territory that Manticore has "claimed" is half of Silesia, where Manticore has been active for many decades. San Martin and the Talbott Quadrant actively petitioned to join. The other names mentioned are only suggestions, without any concrete basis.

Haven and Manticore still have to sift through the systems that were conquered during the war that began with the Peoples' Republic to see which will want to join a side or be independent. I do not expect any of those will be coerced.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But asking doesn't obligate the SEM. Like Talbott, I really thought it had something to do with Manticore's long established Dudley Doright of the Galaxy image. Like the US once upon a time. The Galaxy's hero, if you will. IOW, all I could figure is Manticore had a long cultivated reputation to nurture. But still, there are limits. Although, long term studies of real estate may reveal strategic and or economic advantages. I also considered that poor quadrants were poor only because they were being bled to death by the SL, and piracy.

It doesn't, but Manticore must respond and the answer must be fair. And you know the rejection will be met with "why them and not us?" So we need to answer why Talbott first in order to understand what circumstances made their annexation acceptable before we can dismiss expansion elsewhere.

As I said in the OP, the region most likely to request next is Matapan (provided that politically they were not founded with "we want to be away from you" in the first place). Coming in second would be other systems close to the MBS, but with the advent of the Manticore-Haven Federation, those may simply join that instead and retain some level of independence. What would make the Matapan Cluster any different from Talbott? I quite frankly can't see it.

The only question is how tightly Mantipan might be tied to Asgard through their Junction - since that Junction also has a termini into the Matapan Cluster.

That might affect either their likelihood to request to join Manticore, or provide a reason for Manticore to demur (not wanting to be seen poaching in another government's area of interest)

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:And, why aren't we hearing about Haven claiming some of these territories for itself?

How precisely would that work?

The only territory that Manticore has "claimed" is half of Silesia, where Manticore has been active for many decades. San Martin and the Talbott Quadrant actively petitioned to join. The other names mentioned are only suggestions, without any concrete basis.

Haven and Manticore still have to sift through the systems that were conquered during the war that began with the Peoples' Republic to see which will want to join a side or be independent. I do not expect any of those will be coerced.

Plus Haven has no reasonable access to any of them. The only reason Manticore does is it's wormhole. No sane government would want territory where the only practical way of reaching it, communicating with it, or securing it, relied on access to a transit path under the exclusive control of another government. (In this case the only way Haven could reach Matapan or Madras (without a 6+ month trip through hyper) would be to use Manticore's Junction. (Which also makes it very unlikely that they'd be seen as close or beneficial enough for any of these places to request to join Haven)

Plus of course Haven has to get its own house in order and also restore it's diplomatic standing with its neighbors. So not only does it have plenty of internal improvements to focus on, but the President is probably extremely cautious of any action that even hints at Haven resuming its bad old expansionist ways.

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus Haven has no reasonable access to any of them. The only reason Manticore does is it's wormhole. No sane government would want territory where the only practical way of reaching it, communicating with it, or securing it, relied on access to a transit path under the exclusive control of another government. (In this case the only way Haven could reach Matapan or Madras (without a 6+ month trip through hyper) would be to use Manticore's Junction. (Which also makes it very unlikely that they'd be seen as close or beneficial enough for any of these places to request to join Haven)

Plus of course Haven has to get its own house in order and also restore it's diplomatic standing with its neighbors. So not only does it have plenty of internal improvements to focus on, but the President is probably extremely cautious of any action that even hints at Haven resuming its bad old expansionist ways.

But once that happens and the Bolthole wormhole is disclosed, Haven has a nice connection to the Outer Shell of the League. It isn't useful to get to the Core but there are probably plenty of markets there that would want Havenite products.

cthia wrote:Could the SK ever be in danger of its absorbed worlds becoming much bigger than itself, having a negative impact on the political structure of Manticore? Can the SEM grow to the size of Haven? Perhaps the SEM may come to need its own office of frontier security.

It could grow too large and wide spread that it would be impossible to protect the newly acquired territories in a time of war. Try spreading your ships that thin. Those newly absorbed worlds would be attacked first, revealing the weaknesses of the SEM.

Those could indeed be concerns. Territories that RMN cannot reasonably secure should not be candidates for integration into the Empire. It's harsh to tell them, but being members of the Empire would make them a bigger target for anyone who is at odds with Manticore (and is a few screw short, by picking on Manticore!).

As for a dilution of culture, I don't know. Yes, it could happen, but that might not be a bad thing. It's a choice and we don't know what they would choose.

And, why aren't we hearing about Haven claiming some of these territories for itself?

Aside from what Jonathan said, grabbing territories is the very last thing Pritchart would do. New systems petitioning to join, like Sanctuary, sure. Conquering, never again.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Could the SK ever be in danger of its absorbed worlds becoming much bigger than itself, having a negative impact on the political structure of Manticore? Can the SEM grow to the size of Haven? Perhaps the SEM may come to need its own office of frontier security.

It could grow too large and wide spread that it would be impossible to protect the newly acquired territories in a time of war. Try spreading your ships that thin. Those newly absorbed worlds would be attacked first, revealing the weaknesses of the SEM.

Those could indeed be concerns. Territories that RMN cannot reasonably secure should not be candidates for integration into the Empire. It's harsh to tell them, but being members of the Empire would make them a bigger target for anyone who is at odds with Manticore (and is a few screw short, by picking on Manticore!).

As for a dilution of culture, I don't know. Yes, it could happen, but that might not be a bad thing. It's a choice and we don't know what they would choose.

And, why aren't we hearing about Haven claiming some of these territories for itself?

Aside from what Jonathan said, grabbing territories is the very last thing Pritchart would do. New systems petitioning to join, like Sanctuary, sure. Conquering, never again.

I never said anything about a dilution of culture, although I always questioned the wisdom of welcoming a whole planet of people into your arms when you are a monarchy and they aren't privy or amenable to the ways and respect of, or given to, a Monarchy. There are reasons the US demands a foreigner to pass a citizenship test.

I am more concerned about negatively affecting the political structure, as in the weight and power of the vote. Essentially like what is happening in America where foreigners have tipped the scales of the electoral vote, by internet meddling and other nefarious means.

I also never said anything about Haven conquering, but rather politely soliciting. Although I never considered their access to certain territories.

cthia wrote:I also never said anything about Haven conquering, but rather politely soliciting. Although I never considered their access to certain territories.

I would politely suggest that "Haven claiming some of these territories for itself" gives rather a different connotation than "politely soliciting". So some misunderstanding of your intent seems understandable.

Silesia and Talbott are two very different situtations.

Silsia had been a corrupt swamp and cesspool of political problems for a very long time. The Silesian Confederacy was very much a failed state and we are presented with the description of a majority of the people in charge at the Federal and System (governor) levels as corrupt politicians. Piracy is rampant- aided and abetted not just by private indivulals and companies but by planitary governors if not the governments themselves. And the has always been- at least that is my take- some level of a ConFed member system either in revolt against the Confed or an independt system that has "changed governments" and is creating havoc with it's neighbors or as far as ships holding their Letters of Marque can get for operating range.
Both the Andermani and Manticore have already stepped in and are operating anti-piracy/commer protection patrols and the ConFed has let them. I'm sure there are at least some treaty agreements just to keep it legal but essentialy the ConFed Navy was NOT able to do much in the way of fighting piracy [and we have been told that some of the ship were pirates themselves] and both AE and SKM were acting out of the need to protect at least their own merchant shipping.
NOTE: OFS/SLN - NEVER - shows up in any discussion about anti-piracy or commerce protection in Silesia. While SL flagged merchant shipping routinely goes there, we never near of any SLN presence in a naval/military capasity
By the point at which Harrington is sent to Sidemore just before the war with Haven resumes, the High Ridge government has essentialy cut way back what little RMN patrolling was being maintined in Silesia during the 1st part of the war when so much RMN was diverted to the fighting and Harrington was sent with Wayfairer and the other Q-ships to try to offset the increas in piracy. That is the point where the Andermani shifted from the statis quo in the period before the 1st Haven war and what seems to be the wheels really falling off the situation with the ConFed as piracy, rebellions (against the ConFed) and other problems take off.
From their position, the Andermani can't let Silesia go compleaty to pieces as they are the ones who are going to be having to deal with all that and better to take at least a chunk of it as their own and chastise/intimidate the rest into leaving Andermani interests alone.
After the 2nd half of the Haven war starts and the High Ridge abortion of a government is replaced Manticore comes to a mutual agreement with the Andermani and they divide the failed ConFed between them. Each taking responsibiity for putting thier respective aquistions in order and keeping them there under consistant and honest government. And committing the resources to do that while at the same time agreeing to the legitimate interests of both the Andermani and Manticore in doing so and working out the cooperation and proceedurs between the two to make that work.
Talbott is another story.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I also never said anything about Haven conquering, but rather politely soliciting. Although I never considered their access to certain territories.

I would politely suggest that "Haven claiming some of these territories for itself" gives rather a different connotation than "politely soliciting". So some misunderstanding of your intent seems understandable.

Um...why is that? Is it because of Haven's past? If I may politely point out, I thought I was the only one on this forum who have a problem with accepting at face value that the Havenites have managed to subdue their ever recurrent stripes. Here I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and discussing them like I would any other navy. Surely if I used that same phraseology regarding Manticore or the Andermani "claiming parts of Silesia," no one would bat an eye. Especially with rampant talk about "dividing Silesia" between the two of them sounds even worse. Now I'm confused, have they or have they not cured themselves of the Leopard's stripes? Or do I still have to dance around old sensibilities. Darn Peeps, I'm guilty by association.