Expansion of the Empire: where to?

cthia wrote:Pardon me for asking, but why is the SEM wanting to grow? Why do they need to expand? The MWJ feeds them all like fatted calfs. Certainly they aren't running out of livable real estate.

Anyway, why would the SEM want to absorb poor systems? And, what are the immediate expectations of poor colonies? I keep salivating about the huge freighters of motivation Beth sent Grayson. Surely that's not the norm? There has to be some sort of long term investment study done before soliciting or accepting admittance. It seems they'd have to bring something to the table except mouths to feed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why did they accept the annexation of the Talbott Quadrant? Silesia I can understand as a "use it or lose it" situation: if they didn't, the entire Confederation would become Andermani.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why did they accept the annexation of the Talbott Quadrant? Silesia I can understand as a "use it or lose it" situation: if they didn't, the entire Confederation would become Andermani.

Jonathan_S wrote:Good point. That is a bit surprising.
Accepting Lynx itself, as the nearest inhabited system to the wormhole, I can somewhat see.

But Talbott doesn't seem to provide an immediate benefit to Manticore. Unless, maybe, they were especially worried about having OFS take over so many worlds right next to their new wormhole terminus.

Because it seems like they could have just as easily thanked Talbott for their interest but explained that Manticore just wasn't interested in taking ownership of a bunch more systems right now. However Manticore would be happy to trade with them, there were probably investors looking for opportunities that the new proximity to Manticore and expected new traffic from the League might bring, and the Crown might even subsidize some very attractive loans for education and technology upgrades. Heck if you ask nicely the RMN might even extend some anti-piracy patrols should that become an issue.

OTOH there might be lowered willingness to invest in the Cluster if Manticoran investors feared that systems would rapidly fall under OFS control; with the resulting transtellar capture of their economies. Hard to get return on your investment if Solarian interference cripples, bankrupts, or seizes the companies you invested in. But that's not strictly Manticore's problem. Investors took their chances and can live with it not playing out; though it's a problem for Talbott in that it would likely significantly reduce the amount of investment they could attract.

tlb wrote:On the other hand, if they were worried about the OFS, then they made the wrong decision by accepting these planets.

tlb wrote:On the other hand, if they were worried about the OFS, then they made the wrong decision by accepting these planets.

Jonathan_S wrote:I was thinking less about direct confrontations between Manticore and OFS/FF (which is obviously what happened in the books) and more about OFS and the transtellars scooping up the various systems in the Cluster, and thereby wrecking any investments Manticore or Manticorans had made there (and possibly make it hard for Manticoran freighters to make a buck shipping there)

So more an indirect economic worry than a direct military confrontation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Pardon me for asking, but why is the SEM wanting to grow? Why do they need to expand? The MWJ feeds them all like fatted calfs. Certainly they aren't running out of livable real estate.

I've answered this: it's the other systems that ask for annexation, after seeing the economic boom in Silesia and especially Talbott. Even non-membership is worth it, quod vide Sidemore, Idaho, and Grayson.

Anyway, why would the SEM want to absorb poor systems? And, what are the immediate expectations of poor colonies? I keep salivating about the huge freighters of motivation Beth sent Grayson. Surely that's not the norm? There has to be some sort of long term investment study done before soliciting or accepting admittance. It seems they'd have to bring something to the table except mouths to feed.

Why did they accept the annexation of the Talbott Quadrant? Silesia I can understand as a "use it or lose it" situation: if they didn't, the entire Confederation would become Andermani.

cthia wrote:I also considered that poor quadrants were poor only because they were being bled to death by the SL, and piracy.

"Don't get me wrong." She shook her head, and her voice was calmer, as if she were reasserting control over her own passions. "There's no reason why anyone off Dresden should have given us a free ride. We understand that. Charity begins at home, they say, and Dresden is our home, not Rembrandt's, or San Miguel's, or Manticore's. It's not so much that no one came and invested in free clinics or schools for us, but that we had to fight other people tooth and nail to somehow hang onto enough of the profit of our own labor, our own industrial structure—such as it was, and what there was of it—to begin building our own clinics and schools.
"We'd figured that out by the time the RTU finally got around to us, which is why one of the things we insisted on, if they wanted trade deals with us, was that they had to clean their own house where people like the Van Scheldts were concerned—had to put at least some limits on the kind of crap they could get away with. And, to Mr. Van Dort's credit, I suppose, the RTU did just that. Of course, the extent of the limits they could impose was limited by the domestic pull of their own oligarchs who were already invested in Dresden, but they still managed to do a lot. Which is probably one of the reasons Van Scheldt is such a pain where I'm concerned, I suppose, since his family got whacked harder than most . . . since they'd been even worse than most. But even with Van Dort on our side—and I think he really is" she sounded almost as if she wished she could believe otherwise, Gervais thought "—we're still a long way from where we could have been. It's hard to stand on your own two feet when someone else owns the carpet and keeps trying to jerk it out from under you."

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I also considered that poor quadrants were poor only because they were being bled to death by the SL, and piracy.

I do not think that either is a major cause of poverty in the Talbot Quadrant. Certainly the Solarian League has not extended itself into the Quadrant. There is some piracy, but it is not shown as widespread. As an example Dresden is being exploited by Rembrandt (Storm from the Shadows, chapter 15):

"Don't get me wrong." She shook her head, and her voice was calmer, as if she were reasserting control over her own passions. "There's no reason why anyone off Dresden should have given us a free ride. We understand that. Charity begins at home, they say, and Dresden is our home, not Rembrandt's, or San Miguel's, or Manticore's. It's not so much that no one came and invested in free clinics or schools for us, but that we had to fight other people tooth and nail to somehow hang onto enough of the profit of our own labor, our own industrial structure—such as it was, and what there was of it—to begin building our own clinics and schools.
"We'd figured that out by the time the RTU finally got around to us, which is why one of the things we insisted on, if they wanted trade deals with us, was that they had to clean their own house where people like the Van Scheldts were concerned—had to put at least some limits on the kind of crap they could get away with. And, to Mr. Van Dort's credit, I suppose, the RTU did just that. Of course, the extent of the limits they could impose was limited by the domestic pull of their own oligarchs who were already invested in Dresden, but they still managed to do a lot. Which is probably one of the reasons Van Scheldt is such a pain where I'm concerned, I suppose, since his family got whacked harder than most . . . since they'd been even worse than most. But even with Van Dort on our side—and I think he really is" she sounded almost as if she wished she could believe otherwise, Gervais thought "—we're still a long way from where we could have been. It's hard to stand on your own two feet when someone else owns the carpet and keeps trying to jerk it out from under you."

In some of the planets the oligarchs have control of the capital, but do not invest it.

cthia wrote:But asking doesn't obligate the SEM. Like Talbott, I really thought it had something to do with Manticore's long established Dudley Doright of the Galaxy image. Like the US once upon a time. The Galaxy's hero, if you will. IOW, all I could figure is Manticore had a long cultivated reputation to nurture. But still, there are limits. Although, long term studies of real estate may reveal strategic and or economic advantages. I also considered that poor quadrants were poor only because they were being bled to death by the SL, and piracy.