Collin's assassination list

cthia wrote:I'd still like to know whether anyone inside the Onion has been given the suicide protocols. Daddy Detweiler didn't get captured, so he didn't get to die by natural causes. Natural for the MA anyway. Perhaps the sons are dedicated enough to suicide without the protocols, but, is everyone else, does textev say? What exact method does the suicide protocols use to kill anyway? It isn't like a secret tooth one bites down on, breaks, and releases a nasty poison or neurotoxin. Also, I wonder whether the protocol method is a bit more humane, making the victim see nice imagery or something, like Shangri La, before he dies, along with a feeling of euphoria. They always seem to be so resigned to the notion of dying.

In the cases we know of, where a post-mortem has been performed, and suicide or other external methods are not used, the immediate cause of death has been either a massive coronary, or a cerebral vascular event (stroke or aneurysm). There are other cases which seem to use these methods as well, although they have not be verified by autopsy.

It is just too many unknowns about the suicide protocols. On the one hand you'd think the Detweilers would also opt to get the protocols. No one should be above the needs of the many, or the plan. But then, if you are the head honcho, why should you have to get a bomb placed in your head? Even though it should also protect against torture.

At any rate, what I'd really like to know is how the protocols distinguishes between someone who is authorized to ask questions and someone who is not. IOW, unless it can be disabled on Darius, how is R&D done without being able to discuss certain things? And, if there are no failsafes, then someone can murder anyone else by asking them certain questions, just for the heck of it. And, even if the protocols can be disabled in-system, agents still need to chat outside the system.

If there is such a thing as authorized personnel who are able to discuss anything, then if the GA compromises just one agent even outside of the Onion and turns him, that agent can be used to press further interrogations.

And, if it is a stroke or aneurysm as Fox2! seems to recall and the GA can determine that for certain, then modern medicine may be able to prevent it before it happens, or save the individual after it happens.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might be a sequence of words or images one has to think of.

That seems dangerous. "Now what is that suicide protocol lest I forget? Oh shit!"

You'd want it to be something easily recalled, but not something that simply pops in your head like a ditty. Regardless, that method seems much too dangerous.

cthia wrote:It is just too many unknowns about the suicide protocols. On the one hand you'd think the Detweilers would also opt to get the protocols. No one should be above the needs of the many, or the plan. But then, if you are the head honcho, why should you have to get a bomb placed in your head? Even though it should also protect against torture.

At any rate, what I'd really like to know is how the protocols distinguishes between someone who is authorized to ask questions and someone who is not. IOW, unless it can be disabled on Darius, how is R&D done without being able to discuss certain things? And, if there are no failsafes, then someone can murder anyone else by asking them certain questions, just for the heck of it. And, even if the protocols can be disabled in-system, agents still need to chat outside the system.

If there is such a thing as authorized personnel who are able to discuss anything, then if the GA compromises just one agent even outside of the Onion and turns him, that agent can be used to press further interrogations.

And, if it is a stroke or aneurysm as Fox2! seems to recall and the GA can determine that for certain, then modern medicine may be able to prevent it before it happens, or save the individual after it happens.

I would be very surprised if anyone, that was not a field operator, had the suicide nanite. We know that not even all field agents have it; because the fake ex-slave with the duplicate code on his tongue, had to use the old poison in the hollow tooth routine.

Certainly you do not want the situation on Darius of someone being suicided, because they were asked to give a project status report.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:It is just too many unknowns about the suicide protocols. On the one hand you'd think the Detweilers would also opt to get the protocols. No one should be above the needs of the many, or the plan. But then, if you are the head honcho, why should you have to get a bomb placed in your head? Even though it should also protect against torture.

At any rate, what I'd really like to know is how the protocols distinguishes between someone who is authorized to ask questions and someone who is not. IOW, unless it can be disabled on Darius, how is R&D done without being able to discuss certain things? And, if there are no failsafes, then someone can murder anyone else by asking them certain questions, just for the heck of it. And, even if the protocols can be disabled in-system, agents still need to chat outside the system.

If there is such a thing as authorized personnel who are able to discuss anything, then if the GA compromises just one agent even outside of the Onion and turns him, that agent can be used to press further interrogations.

And, if it is a stroke or aneurysm as Fox2! seems to recall and the GA can determine that for certain, then modern medicine may be able to prevent it before it happens, or save the individual after it happens.

I would be very surprised if anyone, that was not a field operator, had the suicide nanite. We know that not even all field agents have it; because the fake ex-slave with the duplicate code on his tongue, had to use the old poison in the hollow tooth routine.

Certainly you do not want the situation on Darius of someone being suicided, because they were asked to give a project status report.

It seems to me that the strategy should be to STUN all suspects first and immediately effect a search for all known suicide protocols. Victor Cachat was armed with some sort of a suicide device too as I recall.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might be a sequence of words or images one has to think of.

That seems dangerous. "Now what is that suicide protocol lest I forget? Oh shit!"

You'd want it to be something easily recalled, but not something that simply pops in your head like a ditty. Regardless, that method seems much too dangerous.

Make it a binary protocol: two sequences of words or images that have to be thought of in sequence. So you can recall one, then recall a reset keyword or simply wait 2 minutes, then recall the other. Or you can put the nanites in test mode by thinking of the test sequence. The nanites should also provide a feedback if the sequence was correct.

Like Enterprise's auto destruct sequence: you had to provide the (weakest possible!) passwords, 11A, 11A2A and 1B2B3, but the destruct isn't armed and the countdown started until the final sequence was provided.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might be a sequence of words or images one has to think of.

cthia wrote:That seems dangerous. "Now what is that suicide protocol lest I forget? Oh shit!"

You'd want it to be something easily recalled, but not something that simply pops in your head like a ditty. Regardless, that method seems much too dangerous.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Make it a binary protocol: two sequences of words or images that have to be thought of in sequence. So you can recall one, then recall a reset keyword or simply wait 2 minutes, then recall the other. Or you can put the nanites in test mode by thinking of the test sequence. The nanites should also provide a feedback if the sequence was correct.

Like Enterprise's auto destruct sequence: you had to provide the (weakest possible!) passwords, 11A, 11A2A and 1B2B3, but the destruct isn't armed and the countdown started until the final sequence was provided.

Despite calling it a suicide protocol, the only example of what we are certain was a voluntary suicide is the fellow on Torch with poison in a tooth. The other deaths are generally as much a surprise to the person dying as it was to the people confronting them. It is probable the two agents in the Maya Sector pretending to be Manticoran officials were aware that they were about to die, but it is not clear that was a conscious decision on their part.

Also I am not sure that something can be done, such as stunning a suspected agent to prevent the nanites from operating. Stunning a person does not stop all nerve activity (which could be fatal) and could just serve as another trigger.

The two Alignment agents at Smoking Frog were field agents and high level impersonators as well. There was always a good probablility that they might be exposed. They seemed to expect to die once they realized they were caught.
What we don't know is if the suicide protocol can be reversed- such as if they returned from the mission.
We also don't know if any or most of the people dropping dead under SLN & Justice Dept questioning KNEW they had the suicide nanites. The undercover security guy on Mesa who was being questioned by Cachet had a different variation- We don't actualy know if it was triggered with the conversation but he was overdue for his "booster" and that killed him.
It may be something that is approched with a weighted scale of who gets what. Clearly they were going to give Firebrand one but were interupted by events. That one probably would have been the "wrong question" variations vs the " special sequence" that the CNO of SLN had used to trigger his. While he may or may not have known who he was working for he had become a loose end. The sequence variety would work if he had managed to retire or suddenly decided to skip the planet. Unlikely that they would have tried to give him somethg that needed to be reset in a certain time frame.
It might even be something of a combination of circumstances (suddenly being hauled in for questioning) and then being asked something that triggered the event. Certainly the guy the Ghost Hunter abducted and was grilling was running a good line of patter about "everybody doing it" but on a more or less commerical level, not high end espionage. But, he was clearly under duress and the questions were getting more focused.
Would really like to know the trigger parameters.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It might be a sequence of words or images one has to think of.

cthia wrote:That seems dangerous. "Now what is that suicide protocol lest I forget? Oh shit!"

You'd want it to be something easily recalled, but not something that simply pops in your head like a ditty. Regardless, that method seems much too dangerous.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Make it a binary protocol: two sequences of words or images that have to be thought of in sequence. So you can recall one, then recall a reset keyword or simply wait 2 minutes, then recall the other. Or you can put the nanites in test mode by thinking of the test sequence. The nanites should also provide a feedback if the sequence was correct.

Like Enterprise's auto destruct sequence: you had to provide the (weakest possible!) passwords, 11A, 11A2A and 1B2B3, but the destruct isn't armed and the countdown started until the final sequence was provided.

Despite calling it a suicide protocol, the only example of what we are certain was a voluntary suicide is the fellow on Torch with poison in a tooth. The other deaths are generally as much a surprise to the person dying as it was to the people confronting them. It is probable the two agents in the Maya Sector pretending to be Manticoran officials were aware that they were about to die, but it is not clear that was a conscious decision on their part.

Also I am not sure that something can be done, such as stunning a suspected agent to prevent the nanites from operating. Stunning a person does not stop all nerve activity (which could be fatal) and could just serve as another trigger.

Stunning wouldn't be used to foil the nanites, although hopefully it would allow a preliminary autopsy if need be. Stunning would prevent all of the other forms of suicide. Like a tooth. A pill. A poison ring, or that device which Cachat carried. Especially if someone deep inside the Onion is captured who may or may not have the suicide protocols.

If the MA starts taking the average Joe off the street and condition them to be assassins, a lot of hits are going to be successful. Queen Berry should not continue to visit her favorite Ice Cream parlor.

Question. Don't the nanites have a shelf life? Whatever interdisciplinary expert it would take, should be able to suggest that the nanites would have a shelf life. If someone is captured and suiciding is triggered by queries, they can simply be put on ice for a couple of years. Or do the nanites kill the subject if their nanites are not refreshed?

cthia wrote:Question. Don't the nanites have a shelf life? Whatever interdisciplinary expert it would take, should be able to suggest that the nanites would have a shelf life. If someone is captured and suiciding is triggered by queries, they can simply be put on ice for a couple of years. Or do the nanites kill the subject if their nanites are not refreshed?

Wouldn't the nanites also go on ice, thus extend their shelf life by the same amount?