SOS - Control Links and Salvos

cthia wrote:Megan would have been toast had the Admiral not have taken out those colliers. BTW, how was the SLN able to commandeer the TUFT (Taken Up From Trade) freighters, without a formal declaration of war?

The Solarian Navy probably had a few colliers under contract at all times. These freighters would be ones that would also be expected to operate with the Navy in time of war; but obviously only a small percentage of the overall number that would be needed then.

Consider the deployments of Crandall and Filareta (and possibly Byng); these would not be possible without the support of colliers. Any long term deployment requires a fleet train to supply the things that the home base would otherwise provide.

cthia wrote:Brrr Brigade XO. That's a chilling account of things. You know, I got the feeling that Megan half expected Honor to chastise her for her decisions, by taking a chance of getting killed thus being unable to warn the cavalry. When Honor made her statement, Megan was surprised, I think. Or relieved.

Megan would have been toast had the Admiral not have taken out those colliers. BTW, how was the SLN able to commandeer the TUFT (Taken Up From Trade) freighters, without a formal declaration of war?

Megan had already sent a warning to the "cavalry", she sent a Ghost Rider drone out to where she (but not the SLN) knew that the next ship/ships being sent to join the squadron. would be comming into the system from hyperspace. It's a Ghost Rider, from where Meagan launched it, there is no way the SLN is kowing it was launched nor where it is going- or where it would ge taking up station (relative to the anticipated arrival of the RMN ships). Ok, not as ordered by the Admiral but close. The 1st thing the incomming ship(s) would have done was quirky for information at the same time they were looking at the wavefront data comming into them from further in the system. the GR would have pinged back immediately and been way closer than any SLN (or any other) ship in the system.

The incomming RMN ships would have see all sorts of millitary grade and strengh impellers in the system and at least massive confusion. Then a GR hits them from relatively close by with Megan's message and conditions that appended at the time she recorded it and what she was going to attempt to do. The SLN fleet had been in-system for quite a while and all that military grade emmissions and ships is going to scream BIG PROBLEM HERE.

The TUFT use would depend on what the terms of the TUFT contracts were with the civilian owners of those vessels. It probably does NOT specify "only in time of war". There will be a lot of legal jargon that says things that mean " at the pressing need of SLN for lift and fright capasity for such operations nessisarty to the SLN to meet it's orders, objectives and missions and regular naval or auxiluary vessels are not immediatly available" We don't have the text of the agreements but since they did it, they most likely have contracts with that kind of clause in there. There would also be "compensation"- no idea what rates etc- but unlikely they would just be able to grab the ships, dump the cargo and hang onto it for the next couple of years without paying some use fee. Probably also something about storage and making arrangements to compleat -as possible under conditions that then apply- and without late/non performance penalties accrewing to the shipping company because the Navy activated the TUFT provision. Details guys, details.


The colliers were already destroyed before the RMN squadron opened fire with regular missiles. They were no longer a part of the equasion.

Megan sets about continuing a variation of what her commander was trying to do: keep the SLN from destroying the orbital infrastructure and habitats of the system by driving them off. Or at least making it so brutal a beating that the commander of the SLN force makes the decision to withdraw.
The really tricky part of that is if the RMN Admiral know about Partian Shot and that even if he is successful at convincing the SLN to leave without the systematic destruction, that their orders are essentialy to shoot at every infrastructure construction in the system and do as much damage as possible even if it is from very long range and targetting is not all that good (and, as we probably know, any misses might end up hitting things like planets.)

Essentially Partan Shot is a Task Force level drive-by shooting with "spray and pray" than precison targeting from effective engagement ranges. Terror attack and who actualy cares who and what you hit as long as you hit something.

Megan isn't a Elvis Santino. Remember, she isn't anywhere close to where the squadon was when it was destroyed and has been more or less skulking along. Note her not quite taunt to the SLN commander. Can't find me and sure as hell can't catch me. (we love Ghost Rider drones ) See believes she can do some good and it might even work and with her ship she believes she has the ability to stay out of the SLN's reach while keep cutting off each head of the Hydra as it appears at least as long as her magaiznes have anything left.
At that point, and they aren't leaving, she will have to run as best and safely possible to the hyper limit and, unfortuatly, watch as the SLN devistates the system.

Brigade XO wrote:

cthia wrote:Brrr Brigade XO. That's a chilling account of things. You know, I got the feeling that Megan half expected Honor to chastise her for her decisions, by taking a chance of getting killed thus being unable to warn the cavalry. When Honor made her statement, Megan was surprised, I think. Or relieved.

Megan would have been toast had the Admiral not have taken out those colliers. BTW, how was the SLN able to commandeer the TUFT (Taken Up From Trade) freighters, without a formal declaration of war?

Megan had already sent a warning to the "cavalry", she sent a Ghost Rider drone out to where she (but not the SLN) knew that the next ship/ships being sent to join the squadron. would be comming into the system from hyperspace. It's a Ghost Rider, from where Meagan launched it, there is no way the SLN is kowing it was launched nor where it is going- or where it would ge taking up station (relative to the anticipated arrival of the RMN ships). Ok, not as ordered by the Admiral but close. The 1st thing the incomming ship(s) would have done was quirky for information at the same time they were looking at the wavefront data comming into them from further in the system. the GR would have pinged back immediately and been way closer than any SLN (or any other) ship in the system.

The incomming RMN ships would have see all sorts of millitary grade and strengh impellers in the system and at least massive confusion. Then a GR hits them from relatively close by with Megan's message and conditions that appended at the time she recorded it and what she was going to attempt to do. The SLN fleet had been in-system for quite a while and all that military grade emmissions and ships is going to scream BIG PROBLEM HERE.

The TUFT use would depend on what the terms of the TUFT contracts were with the civilian owners of those vessels. It probably does NOT specify "only in time of war". There will be a lot of legal jargon that says things that mean " at the pressing need of SLN for lift and fright capasity for such operations nessisarty to the SLN to meet it's orders, objectives and missions and regular naval or auxiluary vessels are not immediatly available" We don't have the text of the agreements but since they did it, they most likely have contracts with that kind of clause in there. There would also be "compensation"- no idea what rates etc- but unlikely they would just be able to grab the ships, dump the cargo and hang onto it for the next couple of years without paying some use fee. Probably also something about storage and making arrangements to compleat -as possible under conditions that then apply- and without late/non performance penalties accrewing to the shipping company because the Navy activated the TUFT provision. Details guys, details.


The colliers were already destroyed before the RMN squadron opened fire with regular missiles. They were no longer a part of the equasion.

Megan sets about continuing a variation of what her commander was trying to do: keep the SLN from destroying the orbital infrastructure and habitats of the system by driving them off. Or at least making it so brutal a beating that the commander of the SLN force makes the decision to withdraw.
The really tricky part of that is if the RMN Admiral know about Partian Shot and that even if he is successful at convincing the SLN to leave without the systematic destruction, that their orders are essentialy to shoot at every infrastructure construction in the system and do as much damage as possible even if it is from very long range and targetting is not all that good (and, as we probably know, any misses might end up hitting things like planets.)

Essentially Partan Shot is a Task Force level drive-by shooting with "spray and pray" than precison targeting from effective engagement ranges. Terror attack and who actualy cares who and what you hit as long as you hit something.

Megan isn't a Elvis Santino. Remember, she isn't anywhere close to where the squadon was when it was destroyed and has been more or less skulking along. Note her not quite taunt to the SLN commander. Can't find me and sure as hell can't catch me. (we love Ghost Rider drones ) See believes she can do some good and it might even work and with her ship she believes she has the ability to stay out of the SLN's reach while keep cutting off each head of the Hydra as it appears at least as long as her magaiznes have anything left.
At that point, and they aren't leaving, she will have to run as best and safely possible to the hyper limit and, unfortuatly, watch as the SLN devistates the system.

I don't believe it was explicitly stated in the text, but Megan as swimming her birds out of the tubes with a ballistic portion BEFORE the initial drive fired off. She was maneuvering, and varying the initial vector of her missiles so they initiated their drives far from the ship, at varying locations. And with a target sitting in orbit, it as like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Commanding a Roland, Megan only had 280 missiles, with each 18 second firing salvo launching 12 missiles, giving just 23 launches, which were grouped into 36 missile salvos IIRC - so she would have been able to attack just 8 ships, the last with just 28 missiles

Theemile wrote:I don't believe it was explicitly stated in the text, but Megan as swimming her birds out of the tubes with a ballistic portion BEFORE the initial drive fired off. She was maneuvering, and varying the initial vector of her missiles so they initiated their drives far from the ship, at varying locations. And with a target sitting in orbit, it as like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Commanding a Roland, Megan only had 280 missiles, with each 18 second firing salvo launching 12 missiles, giving just 23 launches, which were grouped into 36 missile salvos IIRC - so she would have been able to attack just 8 ships, the last with just 28 missiles

Yes she was, and I believe she fired the one closest or next closest to her present position 1st and would be moving back to earlier ones as a misdirection if she had to continue- which fortunately she didn't.
She has a spread of targets, all within the range of her missile envelope and the likelyhood is that the a good number of the people who will be next in line to command in within that range. Even if they start to manuver, she's going to have a number of them unless they very come up with something else. They can't track her(apparently) using the FTL as there are now so many RMN Ghost Rider drones in the area and they would be confusing the sensors if they try to look for FTL pulse generation,
If they can't lock her up then the best they can do is try to run away...and that is exactly what they would be doing and both any sensors reporting down to Hapatia's government and the rest of the SL fleet will know that. They are running from a woman they can't see and can't find but is killing SLN BCs like so many mice with a shotgun. ONE AT A TIME and demanding they consider what they are doing and the wrong answer will get the decision maker killed.

She's lucky she has someone with some morals and scruples next up in the queue. If that had not happened and he had decided that the best option was to continue to go ahead with Buccaneer, then she would have been making that speech a few more times (I don't recall if she was on a broadcast circuit or closed but broadcast would have been more effective).
If the SL commander had not stood down she would have killed as many as she could- probably one by one since she could ID the latest CO- and eventualy have to crawl away. And both Hypatia and Manticore would have spread all of that across the stars as the bloodthirsty SLN destroyed everything off planet in the system. They had their ORDERS.
It's an object lesson in terrorism

Brigade XO wrote:

Theemile wrote:I don't believe it was explicitly stated in the text, but Megan as swimming her birds out of the tubes with a ballistic portion BEFORE the initial drive fired off. She was maneuvering, and varying the initial vector of her missiles so they initiated their drives far from the ship, at varying locations. And with a target sitting in orbit, it as like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Commanding a Roland, Megan only had 280 missiles, with each 18 second firing salvo launching 12 missiles, giving just 23 launches, which were grouped into 36 missile salvos IIRC - so she would have been able to attack just 8 ships, the last with just 28 missiles

Yes she was, and I believe she fired the one closest or next closest to her present position 1st and would be moving back to earlier ones as a misdirection if she had to continue- which fortunately she didn't.
She has a spread of targets, all within the range of her missile envelope and the likelyhood is that the a good number of the people who will be next in line to command in within that range. Even if they start to manuver, she's going to have a number of them unless they very come up with something else. They can't track her(apparently) using the FTL as there are now so many RMN Ghost Rider drones in the area and they would be confusing the sensors if they try to look for FTL pulse generation,
If they can't lock her up then the best they can do is try to run away...and that is exactly what they would be doing and both any sensors reporting down to Hapatia's government and the rest of the SL fleet will know that. They are running from a woman they can't see and can't find but is killing SLN BCs like so many mice with a shotgun. ONE AT A TIME and demanding they consider what they are doing and the wrong answer will get the decision maker killed.

She's lucky she has someone with some morals and scruples next up in the queue. If that had not happened and he had decided that the best option was to continue to go ahead with Buccaneer, then she would have been making that speech a few more times (I don't recall if she was on a broadcast circuit or closed but broadcast would have been more effective).
If the SL commander had not stood down she would have killed as many as she could- probably one by one since she could ID the latest CO- and eventualy have to crawl away. And both Hypatia and Manticore would have spread all of that across the stars as the bloodthirsty SLN destroyed everything off planet in the system. They had their ORDERS.
It's an object lesson in terrorism

LOL

Morals, scruples, and a pointed fascination with continuing to breathe.

One thing to keep in mind -- planets don't move in unexpected ways; most industrial infrastructure, especially in planetary orbits, don't move unexpectedly either, and all of this stuff is probably in the system almanac. So it should not be impossible to program the missiles "no matter what you do, don't take a course that will send you within 1000 kilometers of the planet". Remember that laserheads can attack from 30k km out, so while they might come near the planet, they don't have to risk touching it.

(Actually, I don't know why the Solarians were trying to take out infrastructure with missiles; when you're in control of local space, you can just do it with energy weapons and save your missiles for actual combat...)

tonyz wrote:One thing to keep in mind -- planets don't move in unexpected ways; most industrial infrastructure, especially in planetary orbits, don't move unexpectedly either, and all of this stuff is probably in the system almanac. So it should not be impossible to program the missiles "no matter what you do, don't take a course that will send you within 1000 kilometers of the planet". Remember that laserheads can attack from 30k km out, so while they might come near the planet, they don't have to risk touching it.

(Actually, I don't know why the Solarians were trying to take out infrastructure with missiles; when you're in control of local space, you can just do it with energy weapons and save your missiles for actual combat...)

I totally agree. I posit that if the MAlign take their gloves off, it would be child's play to design an Eridani Strike Computer to effect Completely Surgical and Precision Planetary Strikes (CSAPPS).

Brigade XO, I missed the fact that Megan had deployed GR to send a message to the cavalry. That brings me to a question which always confused me because I didn't get another memo. When did the GR drones begin to be able to communicate so much info in storyline? I recall initially that RMN FTL had a much limited bandwidth. In what book did they gain a larger vocabulary? I knew the vocabulary had grown beyond a Kindergarten's vocabulary, I just missed when. I experienced a, 'When did they get access to Webster's entire dictionary' type of feeling.

Theemile, thanks for breaking down Megan's loadout and number of available launches. Thanks also for explaining how she got away with keeping her position concealed, because I also missed that she swam her missiles out ballistically. But isn't the same method normally used for tube fired launches? With the only difference being the delay in lighting off? At any rate, I wondered how she would remain hidden had she needed to keep rinsing and repeating. Your post gives me ideas. She could have swam several launches out with the first launch. Activating each as needed. With several more launches ready to go from a new location. Damn she's sneaky. Did she take one of Honor's classes? "How to Stick it to the Man 101"

cthia wrote:Brigade XO, I missed the fact that Megan had deployed GR to send a message to the cavalry. That brings me to a question which always confused me because I didn't get another memo. When did the GR drones begin to be able to communicate so much info in storyline? I recall initially that RMN FTL had a much limited bandwidth. In what book did they gain a larger vocabulary? I knew the vocabulary had grown beyond a Kindergarten's vocabulary, I just missed when. I experienced a, 'When did they get access to Webster's entire dictionary' type of feeling.

This one in particular is not very difficult and requires no greater vocabulary. It didn't even need FTL. All it needed was data storage and endurance. The GR was sent to the track HMS Vukodlak was expected to take. When an RMN ship enters the system, it pings the GRs to find out what's happening and downloads current status.

That's what happened at Second New Tuscany: the GRs that HMS Tristram left behind from the first New Tuscany kept all the records ready for when Tenth Fleet arrived.

But it's also clear that Ghost Riders have much increased bandwidth compared to the original prototype that HMS Troubadour deployed during HotQ. Much bigger than any Havenite design and they're not even in the same ballpark as Hermes buoys.

Echoes of Honor, Ch. 3 wrote:"These are another innovation—for now we're calling them 'Beta-Squared' nodes—which are much more powerful than older nodes. In addition, they've been fitted with a new version of our FTL com—one with a much higher pulse repetition rate—which should make the Shrikes very useful as manned long-range scouts. I imagine we'll be seeing something like it in larger ships in the not too distant future. What matters for our present purposes, however, is that the new nodes are very nearly as powerful as old-style alpha nodes, and we've also built much heavier sidewall generators into the Shrike to go with them. The result is a sidewall which is about five times as tough as anything ever previously mounted in a LAC.

House of Steel states Beta-squared nodes became standard on all Manticoran construction by 1921 PD, as stated in the Shrike-class entry.