Re-printed in different format/typesetting

Paper whining? Are you kidding me?
Give example: USA uses ~65Million tons. Used to use 85Million tons.
Used to recycle zero tons
Now recycles 45Million tons.
Virgin paper delta is a mere 20Million tons. It is more than this as ~10Million tons are exported(mostly recycled)
90% of all corrugated cardboard is recycled.

There are so few trees being cut for paper, the entire paper industry in NE USA has completely shut down for the most part.

Relax wrote:Paper whining? Are you kidding me?
Give example: USA uses ~65Million tons. Used to use 85Million tons.
Used to recycle zero tons
Now recycles 45Million tons.
Virgin paper delta is a mere 20Million tons. It is more than this as ~10Million tons are exported(mostly recycled)
90% of all corrugated cardboard is recycled.

There are so few trees being cut for paper, the entire paper industry in NE USA has completely shut down for the most part.

There is a BBC article from this August about a 10 million Euros theft ring in Spain where thieves were taking cardboard that was put out for recycling; this cuts into the municipal budget. New York and California have reported the same problem in the past. I take this as a sign of progress.

tlb wrote:

There are so few trees being cut for paper, the entire paper industry in NE USA has completely shut down for the most part.

There is a BBC article from this August about a 10 million Euros theft ring in Spain where thieves were taking cardboard that was put out for recycling; this cuts into the municipal budget. New York and California have reported the same problem in the past. I take this as a sign of progress.[/quote]

Recycled paper and cardboard were a notable part of the town income (after offsetting some other things)(along with metals and to some extend glass) for the town in New Hampshire when we were there 1999-2009. The county (ours and the next one east that I know about) make money on paper and other recycling. Also in NH, a couple of the paper mills in the 50+ miles around us had mostly shut down as they didn't have the volume to stay open. That hit the railroad (chemicals in paper out), loggers, all sorts of retailers & equipment ships and the population base in general while the tourist industry struggled on. There had been an energy plant generating power from logging waste- mostly limbs too small for the mills and in some cases stuff tanken down from utility rights of way where they they had hig volumes of brush. That added to the electrical capasity with a "renewable resource" and it put money in the pockets of both the loggers and truckers. Not sure if the plant is still going as it probably wasn't going to justify cutting the trees on a commerical basis just to feed the fires but as a byproduct of an already profit making operation- the logging (and that to the loggers AND the landowners) it made sence.
Forrest Products.

Relax wrote:There are so few trees being cut for paper, the entire paper industry in NE USA has completely shut down for the most part.

Brigade XO wrote:Recycled paper and cardboard were a notable part of the town income (after offsetting some other things)(along with metals and to some extend glass) for the town in New Hampshire when we were there 1999-2009. The county (ours and the next one east that I know about) make money on paper and other recycling. Also in NH, a couple of the paper mills in the 50+ miles around us had mostly shut down as they didn't have the volume to stay open. That hit the railroad (chemicals in paper out), loggers, all sorts of retailers & equipment ships and the population base in general while the tourist industry struggled on. There had been an energy plant generating power from logging waste- mostly limbs too small for the mills and in some cases stuff tanken down from utility rights of way where they they had hig volumes of brush. That added to the electrical capasity with a "renewable resource" and it put money in the pockets of both the loggers and truckers. Not sure if the plant is still going as it probably wasn't going to justify cutting the trees on a commerical basis just to feed the fires but as a byproduct of an already profit making operation- the logging (and that to the loggers AND the landowners) it made sence.
Forrest Products.

Corrected the attribution. I would prefer that people did not put other member's words under my name.

cthia wrote:I was watching an episode of The Brady Bunch several days ago and saw them carrying big bags of groceries, the old paper bags, and I thought, 'I wonder how many trees plastic has saved?'

At any rate, the old publishing method wasted lots of paper just trying to get the copy acceptable. Print runs, test runs.

Though paper is mostly made from fast growing trees that paper companies (or their suppliers) plant specifically for that purpose. (So by and large paper production isn't using old growth trees). So using less paper saves relatively few trees because with less demand fewer trees are planted for paper production.

Turning oil into plastic bags is probably worse than turning planted trees to turn into paper bags. (Though neither is exactly a low energy use process. But at least the paper bags will quickly biodegrade if just left lying around - and if buried in a landfill where they can't break down paper bags would be a minor form of atmospheric carbon sequestration )

Jonathan_S wrote:Though paper is mostly made from fast growing trees that paper companies (or their suppliers) plant specifically for that purpose. (So by and large paper production isn't using old growth trees). So using less paper saves relatively few trees because with less demand fewer trees are planted for paper production.

Turning oil into plastic bags is probably worse than turning planted trees to turn into paper bags. (Though neither is exactly a low energy use process. But at least the paper bags will quickly biodegrade if just left lying around - and if buried in a landfill where they can't break down paper bags would be a minor form of atmospheric carbon sequestration )

Side point, Office paper is mostly made with cotton, which can also be found in other forestry products. Much of this is made from scrap and recycled materials (shirts, rags, etc). Earlier in the 2000's recycled office paper was bought in bulk in the US, filled shipping containers, and shipped back to China, which turned it into cheap (in price) toilet paper. (part of the economy of this was bring back cargos of used shipping containers on otherwise (partially) empty container ships returning to Chinese ports).

Economies are strange complex things.

Theemile wrote:Side point, Office paper is mostly made with cotton, which can also be found in other forestry products.
Economies are strange complex things.

Not to be too blunt, but: Have you been taking the piss bro?

The world is not printing fine art in our daily lives at the photocopier... Nor do junk mailers use cotton... Give you a hint: Not one sheet of ordinary office paper contains a single microgram of expensive cotton.

Now if you are printing photographs which you wish to put on archival paper... Yea, cotton is used. Printed a few myself. In fact, staring at one that is 30" x 72".

PS: Taking the piss(Brit/Aussie/Irish) means pulling my leg... or are you kidding me bro...

Relax wrote:Taking the piss(Brit/Aussie/Irish) means pulling my leg... or are you kidding me bro...

Something of a strange saying. I read that it comes from a morning erection (sometimes called a "Morning Glory"); which was believed to result from the need to urinate, since it fades away after taking a piss. Therefore to take the piss from someone was to deflate them.

PS. "Pulling my leg" is also a strange saying.

Doing it electronically doesn't eliminate the skilled work needed to get x words to fit on y pages. Without wasting 14 or 15 pages or making it really strange-looking at best or unreadable at worst. I've done just enough of that to have some notion of what's involved - and way too much layout work _not_ to be aware of the disasters that await those who try to create books without access to at least Pagemaker-grade software. [actually, my software of choice would be Framemaker, and the software real publishers use is a long way above that in both complexity and precision]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the PRF file would be what's sent to the plate-maker. I would expect it would need to see all the control codes rather than output generated from them.

dvdscar wrote:

cthia wrote:
It has to be electronic.

It is. The galley proof stage these days is an electronic file of the text formatted into the print master file to be delivered to the printer for printing. The page formatter gets the copy edited Word file and does all the formatting for the creation of the print master file. This is not a PDF or a Word doc. What's sent to me by Baen for final review is a .PRF file, but I don't know if that's what goes to the printer or if that's just what's used to send it to me for review.

(I just got one for a recent book. It's fresh in my mind. )

Wow, Louis. You just warmed the cockles of my heart with the mention of PageMaker. PageMaker was straight from Heaven. Nickk is asking for wider spacing and bigger margins. Would that be easier to obtain with publishing software? I always thought the larger the words the more difficult the layout, which of course would also mean more pages; which is why large print Bibles are much more expensive. Bigger words and wider spacing should be more difficult, no? I often find myself, very often, adding words to my posts to fill in wasted space. With books you don't want to cut a word off right at the end.

At any rate, Nickk is asking for wider spacing and bigger margins. Would that be easier, or a bit more difficult? Bracketing the fact it would undoubtedly be more expensive because page count would certainly increase.