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Overpowered Protagonists

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Overpowered Protagonists
Post by MC1560   » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:16 am

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Do you think Honor/Manticore have become far too powerful to continue to be the series main protagonists?
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:04 am

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MC1560 wrote:Do you think Honor/Manticore have become far too powerful to continue to be the series main protagonists?

If you mean that Honor is too high ranking, then the answer is yes and I think that the author has admitted that. But she will still be around to give advice. Unless there is a major fleet action, the most we can expect is short stories about her earlier years in the anthologies.

The same is not true of Manticore, which will continue to be first among equals with Grayson, Beowulf, Haven and the Andermani in the question of the Mesan Alignment. We may also see the Solarians step up, because of the activities of the Ghosthunters.
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by MC1560   » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:08 pm

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tlb wrote:If you mean that Honor is too high ranking, then the answer is yes and I think that the author has admitted that. But she will still be around to give advice. Unless there is a major fleet action, the most we can expect is short stories about her earlier years in the anthologies.
I'm fine with her as a supporting character who shows up once in a while, maybe she is defeated/killed in order to put over an antagonist.

tlb wrote:The same is not true of Manticore, which will continue to be first among equals with Grayson, Beowulf, Haven and the Andermani in the question of the Mesan Alignment. We may also see the Solarians step up, because of the activities of the Ghosthunters.
The GA looks so powerful, how does Mesa stand a chance against a galaxy united against it?
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:31 pm

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tlb wrote:The same is not true of Manticore, which will continue to be first among equals with Grayson, Beowulf, Haven and the Andermani in the question of the Mesan Alignment. We may also see the Solarians step up, because of the activities of the Ghosthunters.

MC1560 wrote:The GA looks so powerful, how does Mesa stand a chance against a galaxy united against it?

I do not know, but it does have the advantages of operating with stealth and secrecy. It does not intend to stand face to face with its enemies, but instead plans to spread doubt, fear and uncertainty; hoping that its Renaissance Factor will serve a the nucleus of an emerging system that the others will fail to match at some point.

But that is why we wait anxiously for the next book with Eric Flint, which Flint's website still shows as "being written, but not yet scheduled for publication".

PS. I will be very surprised if Honor were either defeated or killed in a remaing book.
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by kzt   » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:46 pm

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“Jeves.”
“Yes sir?”
“The solarians are getting restless. Seems that they need another lesson. See to it.”
“Yes sir.”
“Oh, and schedule the victory celebration and the award ceremony for two days from today, I think I have a slot at three.”
“Yes sir.”
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:51 am

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MC1560 wrote:The GA looks so powerful, how does Mesa stand a chance against a galaxy united against it?

Mesa can't, but then they don't have to as long as the GA can't localize the targets. Plus, the MA fights dirty. They are not likely to respond to the message Honor sent the Havenites that she is open to using common decency in the war. When you're being humane and your opponent isn't, when you're abiding by the rules of war and your opponent isn't, then you are severely handicapped. It made Honor pay a visit to the SL. But then, Honor knew the address of the Sol system.

I'm afraid the galaxy will always need a protagonist, and the SEM will always be it. Why? Because Manticore by nature has never been expansionist, they don't have to be. The MWJ feeds them all. And Grayson is a religious society who aren't likely to turn into conquistadors, and their core values is kindness with a firm hand. They let Tester sort out the wicked.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by Relax   » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 pm

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MC1560 wrote:The GA looks so powerful, how does Mesa stand a chance against a galaxy united against it?

Well, start taking swabs and running DNA tests of everyone in the SL like China is doing making a dystopian nightmare where you are tracked 24/7... :shock: This will tell you where all the genie supermen are hiding. Big HINT: These most likely will be your supervillains hideouts wherever such concentrations exist.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:14 pm

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The universal testing for DNA in the SL doesn't have a candle's chance in a typhoon when the MA is involved. Heck there are too many people who probably want to avoid any more contact with their local, certalinly the SL government than possible.
You don't have to be massivly devious to try and get someone else to have their DNA be what is analysed and the more specific the thing you are looking for -and where it should be in the genetics- it could make it doable to swap a sample, particularly if you have friends in the program and make the swaps after the person being tested has been id's with normal identification. How many planitary governments will have testing results on spacers that come though- and land- let alone those who never leave their ships.
Are the results going to be confirmed and collated at some central points and in a database such that they can identify duplicate results from differnt systems?
Will the people (well, actualy probably computers) have access to things like photo images of the person tested along with other relevent data"
What happens if the sample belongs to a resident of Ewhon, or the Maya Autonomus Region? Or some person on a Manticorian freighter that had samples taken without their knowlege. Or Mesan genetic slaves which were harvested for samples which could be spread around?
Are they going to cross reference against the SLN sample base from those who were alive before Harrington showed up at Sol? Just how many people from how many systems NOT in the SL or protectorates would make a reasonable substitue source to avoid putting your DNA into that testing database. Because you might not want to 1st run the entire avaialbe DNA database for all SL and Protectorate systems first and then cross check it against the samples you get from the new round of tests.......and what percentage of people in the existing database are either dead, traveling (military, business, pleasure), or who's whereabouts are not known.
And we think we have challanges just testing to COVID-19.
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:26 pm

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MC1560 wrote:The GA looks so powerful, how does Mesa stand a chance against a galaxy united against it?

Relax wrote:Well, start taking swabs and running DNA tests of everyone in the SL like China is doing making a dystopian nightmare where you are tracked 24/7... :shock: This will tell you where all the genie supermen are hiding. Big HINT: These most likely will be your supervillains hideouts wherever such concentrations exist.

Unlike the Chinese example, the Solarian League might only need to test people going into government service (either the military or the bureaucracy); they certainly would not care about testing those who have no power, such as slum dwellers. A more interesting question is whether they could get any useful information out of it. As readers, we may expect that there are genetic similarities within the Alpha, Beta or Gamma groups. But is that necessarily true? It depends on how much variety the genetic engineers of Mesa kept in their mix. Given that they would be well aware of the ability to profile people genetically and also to avoid any problems with inbreeding, they might have tried to maximize variability to the extent possible within each group. So that each group is a mélange. From Crown of Slaves, chapter 2:
Yes, sure, Berry was born on Earth so her DNA will be as much of a mélange as any human's in the galaxy. But Ruth's of Grayson-Masadan stock, and that genetic variation has far too many distinct traits not to be spotted easily."
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Re: Overpowered Protagonists
Post by GloriousRuse   » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:04 pm

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I suppose there is both an “in universe” and “meta” answer to that.

Certainly in-universe you could argue that there are a great many ways both could continue to be protagonists, facing challenging situations and legitimate threats. Civil war, rising contenders across an ever expanding empire, a position where suddenly because they’re the king of the hill all of a sudden they are blamed for problems they cannot realistically fix and the inevitable backlash that follows. Etc.

The Meta however, will not allow it. The powers that be have decreed that they will always be sparkling paragons of progress and virtue whose every move is wise, utterly effective, and just - and that should they ever have so much as an inkling if a threat, just-in-time technology will save them. Their opponents can only ever be wrong-bad-dumb incapable of even the slightest success, and the only hard working or competent people on the other side will be those about to defect or those shown to be the victims of continuous catastrophic leadership from the wrong-bad-dumbs.

Which is why I root against Manticore...
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