Treecat Counter

cthia wrote:Besides, I disagree that cloned Cats who are fed celery won't eventually communicate with each other. Unless the process is spiritual or metaphysical. Perhaps that can't be cloned.

Even if cats never exposed to others would develop communication beyond feeling mindglows don't forget that most celery won't provide the necessary micro-nutrient needed to promote proper development. For that you need purple thorn or Sphinxian celery. (Possibly even Sphinxian celery grown in specific Sphinxian soils).

Now if the MAlign knew about the micro-nutrient I'm sure they'd have little trouble growing or synthesizing it. But they likely don't know...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Without capturing treecats to figure out how the telepathy works it will be very difficult. And even then there's no guarantee, since the Manties haven't figured out either (though granted they haven't experimented with treecats in laboratory conditions either).

Nor would the Manties ever take the experimentation to the lengths the MA are prepared to do.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Capturing a treecat is not as easy as it seems. Manpower has been trying to do that for five centuries without success. Treecats are intelligent enough and can avoid capture by a variety of devices. They also seem to be able to suicide at will, so their value as a live specimen is very limited. On the other hand, with the number of treecats now outside of Sphinx having increased by orders of magnitude in the last 10 years, it might become possible.

Definitely possible by a determined and resourceful MA. Also consider that a Cat could end up bonding with an MA agent or someone closely related to the MA. That person might not harm the Cat, but all bets are off with the Inner Onion. I think the weakest in the herd are the youngest of the Cats. The young are always the less aware and the most carefree and careless. A diversion on Grayson and stun guns ought to do the trick.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:As for what it might be, it could be that some materials can shield treecat mindglow perceptions and communications, like lead is a good shield against high-energy photons. There may also be a way to jam it, by producing a high-intensity noise in the appropriate frequency and medium. But neither is likely to be stealthy or even portable for the next decade or two. So you may prevent treecat perception, at the expense of saying "here's something to hide."

This is a really interesting notion. Certain frequencies affect almost every lifeform. Claws off that blackboard! If a frequency of that nature is determined, groups of people carrying the device could travel together. Even if it is known to affect the Cats, what can be done? It isn't illegal yet?

tonyz wrote:And while they have treecat DNA, I strongly suspect that a lot of telepathic/empathic skill is learned from other treecats; just cloning treecats won't give you an insight into culture or ethics or the extent of their empathic reach, any more than cloning Honor would automatically give you a tactical genius.

munroburton wrote:Aye. When Honor's child was being grown in a tube, they were playing audio recordings of her voice and others' to simulate the experience of a real womb. There is no way to simulate this for mindglows and mindvoices. It's not really known how much difference this kind of prenatal nurture(or the lack of it) makes, but I imagine it's significant for treecats.

Without it, the cloned treecats might still be able to sense and communicate with each other, but they would be starting from scratch. If the clones are allowed to breed naturally, each subsequent generation could improve the quality of their new language and expand their culture.

Very basic concepts might re-appear in the same way Sphinxian treecats evolved them - such as "water", for example - but the cloned cats in isolation should end up with a very different language, which would be almost incomprehensible on Sphinx.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Cloning a treecat will not yield a treecat who knows how to read mind glows any more than cloning a mummy will give us someone who speaks Ancient Egyptian. They'll have the equipment, but since so far no one seems to know what the transmission medium is, it doesn't seem that the MAlign would be able to even produce the necessary stimuli.

I'm going to respond to the last three posts above as a whole, because they share a very important concept, unbeknownst or not. Namely, the philosophical undertones of whether a human being who is totally deprived of outside stimuli his entire life, will learn to think. Never touching another person. Never hearing the language spoken by another person. At any rate, the discussion definitely contains threads of existential philosophy and Martin Heidegger's idea of a dasein expounding on the philosophy of Nietzsche who seemed to agree on basic matters. The philosophy was integral to Wilhelm and Hegel, although significant divisions are noted in the thinking. I worked with a professor who was seeking her second Ph.D at the time. I was her personal editor and we worked closely together for several years before she published. Publication is a requirement for a Ph.D. We continued to talk on the subject for some twenty plus years. Consciousness is an interesting vein of philosophy. Indeed, can there be consciousness before language? Or without, as I asked the author.

At any rate, an experiment to totally deprive a human from anything but the basic stimuli of touch isn't possible. He may remember or have been affected by certain stimuli while in the womb. I don't know how much stimuli the MA's clones are given, though I wouldn't think it'd be total sensory deprivation. In closing, several decades studying the subject and listening to experts, along with my own experiences, I agree with the class of philosophers who think language comes before consciousness. "I think therefore I am." If you already assimilated that language is a prerequisite for thinking, you're ahead of the game.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if cats never exposed to others would develop communication beyond feeling mindglows don't forget that most celery won't provide the necessary micro-nutrient needed to promote proper development. For that you need purple thorn or Sphinxian celery. (Possibly even Sphinxian celery grown in specific Sphinxian soils).

Now if the MAlign knew about the micro-nutrient I'm sure they'd have little trouble growing or synthesizing it. But they likely don't know...

True. I didn't forget about the native plant, but I couldn't remember the name. Also, it may not grow well on Darius, and there's no guarantee that synthesizing it would work. The proper absorption of certain chemicals sometimes has to be administered in a certain form. OTOH, if it is synthesized and its strength is increased? Super Cat telepathy? At any rate, if a different breed of Cat is produced with allegiance to the MAlign, and they come face to face with Sphinxian Cats, it will be the first time Cats find themselves at odds with one another. Their doppelgangers. Also, a cloned MA cat can be brought to Sphinx to listen to the language.

cthia wrote:Definitely possible by a determined and resourceful MA. Also consider that a Cat could end up bonding with an MA agent or someone closely related to the MA. That person might not harm the Cat, but all bets are off with the Inner Onion. I think the weakest in the herd are the youngest of the Cats. The young are always the less aware and the most carefree and careless. A diversion on Grayson and stun guns ought to do the trick.

Well-educated Sphinxian treecats would not bond with the Inner Onion in the first place. It's doubtful that even cloned treecats would. Given your post of RFC's thoughts on how treecat mind communication works, it's likely that the Inner Onion's thoughts would "taste sour" or equivalent to treecats, whether cloned or natural of Sphinx.

Additionally, we know from Harahap's adoption by Clean Killer / Fire Watch that the attitude of the adopted person changes when adopted. Before his adoption, Harahap was happy to work with the GA because they were "the highest bidder" and he had no sympathies for the MAlign once he knew the extent to which they tried to control him (but he had no qualms about controlling others). After the adoption -- Pat Givens' "oh shit!" moment -- Harahap's entire attitude towards the world changed. His moral compass changed. So the same effect could happen on a MAligner like Jack or Zack McBryde.

Uncompromising Honor, 'HMS Tristram; Visigoth Terminus and HMS Artemis; Tenth Fleet, Mesa System' wrote:Now he opened to that glow, embracing it, and marveled once again at the awareness that there was at least one being in the galaxy who truly and simply loved Damien Harahap despite knowing exactly who he was... and exactly what he'd done with his life.

Until Fire Watch had given him that priceless gift, he'd never once allowed himself to realize how desperately—and for how long—he'd wanted it. He didn't expect anyone who hadn't been adopted to understand how the bond worked. For that matter, he didn't understand it, himself. But he knew he would die before himself to fall short of that loving presence's expectations.

No wonder Duchess Harrington seemed so amused by it all, he thought. If anyone understood just how good a...a moral jailer Fire Watch was going to be, it had to be her. And talk about ironic justice—!

(76% into the book)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Definitely possible by a determined and resourceful MA. Also consider that a Cat could end up bonding with an MA agent or someone closely related to the MA. That person might not harm the Cat, but all bets are off with the Inner Onion. I think the weakest in the herd are the youngest of the Cats. The young are always the less aware and the most carefree and careless. A diversion on Grayson and stun guns ought to do the trick.

Well-educated Sphinxian treecats would not bond with the Inner Onion in the first place. It's doubtful that even cloned treecats would. Given your post of RFC's thoughts on how treecat mind communication works, it's likely that the Inner Onion's thoughts would "taste sour" or equivalent to treecats, whether cloned or natural of Sphinx.

Additionally, we know from Harahap's adoption by Clean Killer / Fire Watch that the attitude of the adopted person changes when adopted. Before his adoption, Harahap was happy to work with the GA because they were "the highest bidder" and he had no sympathies for the MAlign once he knew the extent to which they tried to control him (but he had no qualms about controlling others). After the adoption -- Pat Givens' "oh shit!" moment -- Harahap's entire attitude towards the world changed. His moral compass changed. So the same effect could happen on a MAligner like Jack or Zack McBryde.

Uncompromising Honor, 'HMS Tristram; Visigoth Terminus and HMS Artemis; Tenth Fleet, Mesa System' wrote:Now he opened to that glow, embracing it, and marveled once again at the awareness that there was at least one being in the galaxy who truly and simply loved Damien Harahap despite knowing exactly who he was... and exactly what he'd done with his life.

Until Fire Watch had given him that priceless gift, he'd never once allowed himself to realize how desperately—and for how long—he'd wanted it. He didn't expect anyone who hadn't been adopted to understand how the bond worked. For that matter, he didn't understand it, himself. But he knew he would die before himself to fall short of that loving presence's expectations.

No wonder Duchess Harrington seemed so amused by it all, he thought. If anyone understood just how good a...a moral jailer Fire Watch was going to be, it had to be her. And talk about ironic justice—!

(76% into the book)

Note that I did not say a Cat would bond with anyone in the Onion, those guys are a bunch of psychopaths. Albeit, I'm not prepared to totally rule it out either. But perhaps someone outside of the Onion, perhaps. I even recall at least one inside the Onion who questioned a lot of his responsibilities, like Simoes' handler.

An entity likes what it looks. Besides, I've frequently heard the argument that the MA truly believes their entire MO is for the betterment of man. If you are one of the people on that side of the fence, then your two notions don't gel. A Cat could certainly find a purely altruistic person likeable, minus his methods. Nobody can choose someone else's soulmate.

No, textev does not say Harahap was happy to work with the MAlign. I just read the book. IINM, it says something like it was the lesser of the evils of his options, and the money was good. Plus, Honor figured out that he may have been doing it to get revenge on someone working at StratoCorp. Kalokainos. I agree that bonding changes you.

“The Alignment offered him work and an opportunity to stay alive. The pay was good, I’m sure, and Harahap’s not the sort to turn his nose up at that. Hardly surprising, given where he spent his childhood and adolescence. But I’m pretty sure it was more the cover against Kalokainos—and maybe the possibility that his new bosses would help him square his account with Kalokainos someday—that drew him into Alignment employment. Well, that and the fact that he was pretty sure the Alignment would have snipped the same loose end if he didn’t accept their offer.

Can a Cat end up bonding with someone who has been nanited? Could Clean Killer have ended up bonding with Harahap had he been conditioned before the interrogation began?

cthia wrote:Can a Cat end up bonding with someone who has been nanited? Could Clean Killer have ended up bonding with Harahap had he been conditioned before the interrogation began?

I don't see why not. Until the nanites begin to assert themselves, there is hardly any indication or so we've been told. I don't think there's anything for the treecats to detect.

If there is, that's a major breakthrough for the GA.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Can a Cat end up bonding with someone who has been nanited? Could Clean Killer have ended up bonding with Harahap had he been conditioned before the interrogation began?

I don't see why not. Until the nanites begin to assert themselves, there is hardly any indication or so we've been told. I don't think there's anything for the treecats to detect.

If there is, that's a major breakthrough for the GA.

Indeed, because I'm wondering if the bond itself can break through the conditioning.

cthia wrote:Indeed, because I'm wondering if the bond itself can break through the conditioning.

I could maybe see a treecat bond affecting the more subtle non-nanite based forms of mental programming (the types that military folks get blocks against); since those are far mor slow acting so the slow adaptation and influence a bond can supply may work against them. But nanites appear to run your muscles directly, outside the control of your conscious brain; so I can't see how a bond which only subtly affect the mind could break the nanites' ability to brute force seize control.

cthia wrote:Indeed, because I'm wondering if the bond itself can break through the conditioning.

Unlikely. It's noted the compulsion only lasts a few minutes. 10-15 I believe before the person can regain control. It's literately splicing the nerve impulses and sending nerve impulses out that do what is programed. I simply don't see how a bond could help other than maybe cut that 10-15 minutes down a bit so the real nerve impulses by the brain overwhelm the fake nerve impulses.

ZVar wrote:

cthia wrote:Indeed, because I'm wondering if the bond itself can break through the conditioning.

Unlikely. It's noted the compulsion only lasts a few minutes. 10-15 I believe before the person can regain control. It's literately splicing the nerve impulses and sending nerve impulses out that do what is programed. I simply don't see how a bond could help other than maybe cut that 10-15 minutes down a bit so the real nerve impulses by the brain overwhelm the fake nerve impulses.

I don't even think it lasts that long. Also, the programming is simple - it Tim Meares case, grab pistol and start shooting people - Honor's presence was a trigger, but Tim didn't even focus on her, he just started blasting everyone who entered his arc as he turned toward Honor. You can't type out Shakespeare on a Russian typewriter, but you can type in a 10 digit code on a number pad you are used to. It's an overwhelming muscle memory, little more.

Here's the question, if they took away the ability to Panic about the triggering without making the person into a functional drunk, would a Treecat (even one bonded to the target) react? Today, I scratch the side of my nose or my beard without consiously think about it. I'll play with a pen, or adjust my chair absently without a thought. OR I enter a website into a browser or change the settings on the thermostat with no more than an initiating thought. Would a treecat get triggered by me idly fiddling with some Legos. No - i's the "i'm not in control mental scream that triggers them. Find a way to take that away....