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SOS - Control Links and Salvos

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SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:11 am

cthia
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Nineteen salvos. It's simply difficult to satisfy my insatiable need for carnage. Space opera corrupts me. . .absolutely. Why only nineteen salvos with the available total missile loadout between the Admiral's ships? Is it ONLY the limitation of control links? There are too many holes in my understanding.

1. Without a control link, even a single missile is blind fired. But Manticoran launches are actually broods of eight missiles. Is that still eight control links, or one control link per brood of missiles?

2. Does a missile have to have a control link assigned to it before launch, or can it be blind fired then a control link assigned to it as one becomes available? Passing the baton and targeting info, another luxury afforded by FTL control. GR.

3. When the Admiral's ships are destroyed and the remaining launches are on their own, are they completely on their own, or can GR drones update them with the ship's last targeting info? Cached inside GR.

I'll never understand why a ship has to die with any missiles in its holds. Especially when there are other ships, like Megan's, in the system. Flush all missiles and let Megan handle them.

4. Do the control links have to be shared with CMs as well?

5. Approximately twenty launches at, let's say five hundred missiles per launch, for a total of 10,000 missiles? Is that 10,000 currently active control links for the missiles that are already in flight, alone? Or does the computer consider when control links will be available and staggers the launch accordingly?

::Sir Shrugsalot::

Three hundred and thirty attack missiles, covered and protected by their electronic siblings, streaked towards their targets, separating onto individual, evasive approach profiles at last, and TF 1030’s missile defenses tried frantically to reacquire them as they came.

“Projected targets Ontario, Enterprise, Edinorg, Marengo, and Re Umberto,” Koopman said flatly. “Tracking’s confidence is not—repeat, not—high.”

Hajdu’s jaw tightened. If those projections were correct—and, looking at the hashed nightmare of the plot he understood exactly why Tracking’s confidence in them was so low the Manties had concentrated their fire on only five of his ninety-eight battlecruisers. That would produce a density of almost seventy missiles per target, assuming an even distribution, and that promised disastrous consequences. Seventy Solarian missiles would have been enough to wreck any battlecruiser, assuming they could get through its defenses. Looking at that plot, it was obvious a lot of them were going to get through, and one thing all OpAn’s projections agreed upon was that Manticoran warheads were far more destructive on a bird-for-bird basis.

He’s not even trying to target all of us, the vice admiral realized. He’s going to go for a handful of targets in each salvo, concentrate his fire to pound through their defenses, and rip them to frigging bits.

Hajdu Gyôzô’s brain went through the remorseless math. There were fifteen salvos in space now. His Cataphracts were actually faster than the missiles coming at him—their time-of-flight was seventy-one seconds shorter than the initial Manticoran salvo’s—but by the time they reached their target, the Manties would have fired a total of nineteen. If each of those salvos concentrated on five of his ships and even a third of them got through, they could reduce every single one of his battlecruisers to wreckage.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:29 am

cthia
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I've found the answer to . . .

1. Without a control link, even a single missile is blind fired. But Manticoran launches are actually broods of eight missiles. Is that still eight control links, or one control link per brood of missiles?

MoH Ch. 22 wrote:The Saganami-C-class heavy cruiser massed four hundred and eighty thousand tons. It mounted forty missile launchers in each broadside, and it had been designed to fire double broadsides at its enemies, then provided with a sixty percent redundancy in control links as a reserve against battle damage. That gave each of Aivars Terekhov's cruisers one hundred and twenty eight telemetry links, and each of those links was assigned to one Mark 23-E missile, which, in turn, controlled eight standard Mark 23s.


Dividing the 10,000 missiles by 8 in the Admiral's launch gives me 1250 active control links. Of course, I'm wondering how many control links there are per class of ship.

The Sag Cs have 128 control links and can control 1,024 missiles.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:58 am

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cthia wrote:I've found the answer to . . .

1. Without a control link, even a single missile is blind fired. But Manticoran launches are actually broods of eight missiles. Is that still eight control links, or one control link per brood of missiles?

MoH Ch. 22 wrote:The Saganami-C-class heavy cruiser massed four hundred and eighty thousand tons. It mounted forty missile launchers in each broadside, and it had been designed to fire double broadsides at its enemies, then provided with a sixty percent redundancy in control links as a reserve against battle damage. That gave each of Aivars Terekhov's cruisers one hundred and twenty eight telemetry links, and each of those links was assigned to one Mark 23-E missile, which, in turn, controlled eight standard Mark 23s.


Dividing the 10,000 missiles by 8 in the Admiral's launch gives me 1250 active control links. Of course, I'm wondering how many control links there are per class of ship.


Apollo launches are 8 missile broods, with 1 ACM missile. 1 control link is used between the ship and the ACM, and the ACM has 8 short ranged control links to control the 8 attack missiles.

Sag-C's had an amazing 128 control links in each aspect. Rolands have 36. Medusas had over 400, Invictuses are even more.

Previous generations were not as robust - most legacy Manty designs had enough control for over ~200% their missile tube strength in any aspect to allow for double salvos and battle damage.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:11 am

cthia
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Thanks Theemile! I was editing as you posted. Sorry.

I'd like to figure out how many control links were unused at the time of Admiral Kotouč's death. If none, how many missiles were wasted, died with his ships? I know three of his ships were Sag Bs. With how many control links?

What class of ship was Megan's ship, Arngrim, and her number of control links?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:24 am

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cthia wrote:4. Do the control links have to be shared with CMs as well?

No, CMs have their own dedicated control links. CMs are also control link limited (see how many more CM salvos Honor was able to get off at (IIRC) Salon when using Keyhole to mitigate the "gunsmoke" issue; but they're using their own dedicated pool of CM control links; not sharing "universal" control links with MDMs.

See this infodump Fire control uplink flexibility
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:28 am

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also remember that the best missile Koutic had was the mk 16 DDM, and only his BC had those, the CAs were using the older ERM missiles.

light speed lag is also a problem for any missile that isn't apollo, and even terekov couldn't make full use of apollo as his ships lacked Keyhole.

so Peterson lurking out system had no way to control the orphaned missiles, due to lack of links, and lag and with them being older missiles with less capable internal programming compared to standard Mk 23s let alone apollo.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:30 am

Theemile
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cthia wrote:Thanks Theemile! I was editing as you posted. Sorry.

I'd like to figure out how many control links were unused at the time of Admiral Kotouč's death. If none, how many missiles were wasted, died with his ships? I know three of his ships were Sag Bs. With how many control links?

What class of ship was Megan's ship, Arngrim, and her number of control links?


Originally, Sag Bs had about enough control links in the fore and aft to control 21 missiles - even though it could fire 40 into the fore and aft arcs. The Broadside arcs had more than enough control for a double broadside, even though the Sag-B could not fire 180 degrees off bore.

The SAG-Bs were practically dry when the died - the Nike still had several thousand missiles.

Megan had a Roland.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:40 am

cthia
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Dauntless wrote:also remember that the best missile Koutic had was the mk 16 DDM, and only his BC had those, the CAs were using the older ERM missiles.

light speed lag is also a problem for any missile that isn't apollo, and even terekov couldn't make full use of apollo as his ships lacked Keyhole.

so Peterson lurking out system had no way to control the orphaned missiles, due to lack of links, and lag and with them being older missiles with less capable internal programming compared to standard Mk 23s let alone apollo.

Thanks Dauntless. That highlights another of my concerns. Didn't Megan Peterson have Apollo? I thought the Apollo control system was backwardly compatible, or should be, i.e., no ship without Apollo can control an Apollo missile, but why can't the Apollo system also control older missiles? Computers themselves are certainly backwardly compatible. Legacy software/hardware. Flawed reasoning obviously, but why?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:03 am

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cthia wrote:
Dauntless wrote:also remember that the best missile Koutic had was the mk 16 DDM, and only his BC had those, the CAs were using the older ERM missiles.

light speed lag is also a problem for any missile that isn't apollo, and even terekov couldn't make full use of apollo as his ships lacked Keyhole.

so Peterson lurking out system had no way to control the orphaned missiles, due to lack of links, and lag and with them being older missiles with less capable internal programming compared to standard Mk 23s let alone apollo.

Thanks Dauntless. That highlights another of my concerns. Didn't Megan Peterson have Apollo? I thought the Apollo control system was backwardly compatible, or should be, i.e., no ship without Apollo can control an Apollo missile, but why can't the Apollo system also control older missiles? Computers themselves are certainly backwardly compatible. Legacy software/hardware. Flawed reasoning obviously, but why?

The Apollo control missiles (Mk23E ACMs) are backwards compatible with conventional light-speed control links. But only SD(P) or forts carrying Keyhole II relays can use the Mk23E's FTL fire control link.[1] (My speculation is that the small FTL receiver on the Mk23E needs the grav signalling source to be physically clear of a ship's wedge to avoid losing the signal in the general grav noise of the wedge. But for whatever reason hull mounted FTL fire control hasn't been a thing in the Honorverse; even though hull mounted FTL communications and recon drone control has been)

Those Mk23E missiles are still physically much larger than even a normal Mk23 capital ship, 3-drive, MDM. Nobody had built a ship that can fire Mk23E AMCs from internal tubes so they're only carried by pod layers (and pod laying forts). And for doctrinal reasons the RMN doesn't provide them to their BC(P)s; though the Agamemnon's are physically capable of handling Apollo pods. However no BC(P) carries Keyhole II (typo in HoS's color plates not withstanding) and so even if equipped with Apollo pods a BC(P) couldn't control them FTL.

It's not clear if the Mk23's the Mk23E controls are stock or if they have some minor modification; but they're probably stock. We haven't seen a Mk23E control older missiles; but in theory it could. Though it seems a real waste to use a massive 3-drive missile to control less capable Mk16 DDMs, or even Mk14 ERMs; with their shorter powered ranges and smaller warheads. I guess you could team it up with the older Mk41 capacitor powered MDMs; but those have less capable ECM and are physically larger than Mk23s; so a pod of Mk23E + Mk41 would have to carry fewer attack missiles than the normal Apollo pod - so it's still less effective. But since they're currently only fired from Apollo pods, you wouldn't have a Mk23E Apollo Control Missile around unless it was fired with the 8 Mk23s its controlling; so you don't have spare Mk23Es to link up with your older missiles. (And again, the Mk23E is the largest missile any RMN ship carries, and they do so only in pods - so to link them up with older missiles would require that you "waste" your largest and most expensive missile by building a custom pod of it and these less capable older missiles. A pointless exercise)


Megan Petersen (not Peterson)'s Roland-class DD HMS Arngrim carried neither Mk23E ACMs nor Keyhole II. Like all RMN warships if towing an Apollo pod (one with a Mk23E + eight Mk23s) it could have controlled the ACM and its brood using a single light-speed control link. So to that extent it can use Apollo. But it can't carry Apollo missiles internally and can't use their FTL fire control capabilities. Even if the other RMN ships at Hypatia had been towing Apollo pods and gotten their Mk23E + Mk23s launched before they died Arngrim is so far away that lightspeed control of those Apollo missiles would be useless.

So while Apollo is backwards compatible with the fire control of Arngrim that's irrelivant to Hypatia because a) no ships were firing Apollo missiles, and b) Arngrim was so far away the backwards compatible light-speed control would have been useless even if there had been Apollo missiles launched.

------
[1] The RMN was also looking at even larger system defense variants of the Mk23 and Mk23 ACM carrying 4-drives; which apparently not even podlayer's could carry. Not sure if that design got deployed or if the deployed system defense missiles are still 3-drive designs.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 am

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Thanks Theemile! I was editing as you posted. Sorry.

I'd like to figure out how many control links were unused at the time of Admiral Kotouč's death. If none, how many missiles were wasted, died with his ships? I know three of his ships were Sag Bs. With how many control links?

What class of ship was Megan's ship, Arngrim, and her number of control links?


Originally, Sag Bs had about enough control links in the fore and aft to control 21 missiles - even though it could fire 40 into the fore and aft arcs. The Broadside arcs had more than enough control for a double broadside, even though the Sag-B could not fire 180 degrees off bore.

The SAG-Bs were practically dry when the died - the Nike still had several thousand missiles.

Megan had a Roland.


Also, The squadron was not control link limited - it was fire rate limited. They were firing continuous salvos from every tube, every 18 seconds - the cycle rate of the Mk 16 tubes in the battlebruiser. The Mk 14 tubes in the Sag-Bs had a cycle rate between 8 and 12 seconds, but were limited to the squadron rate for intense salvo fire. The top salvo control of a Nike has never been stated - but it most likely has between 250 and 300 control links in it's Keyhole I modules.
Last edited by Theemile on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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