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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:18 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that the Alignment has caught on to or implimented the automation levels the RMN has been using. I'm surprized that the Alignment hasn't tried to go after at least some of the earlier Manticore Lite Tech that Erwhon has and is using to upgrade it's own navy and the Maya Region SDF. That would provide examples of interm steps and should show lines of progression.


Who says they didn't try? The fact that they tried to trick Barregos by pretending to be Manticorarns shows that they tried to infiltrate Maya. So it's not a big leap to assume they tried to infiltrate Erewhon too.

But we know they weren't successful in Maya because they tried to get Barregos to do something he was going to do anyway by pretending to give Manticoran support he was actually getting. They didn't know Barregos was already getting Mk17 missiles and had a pipeline of communication. And it doesn't seem anyone at the MAlign had noticed that the Erewhon construction was better than advertised anyway.

Though they might have and might have also concluded that it wasn't worth it. Getting technology a nearly decade out of date might be too big an effort for too little reward. Not to mention they may be arrogant enough to think they didn't need to go for the small prize.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:42 am

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I wonder if infiltrating Erewhon was somehow more difficult because they kept jumping ship. Until UH, I wasn't aware Erewhon was originally allied with the SL. Then of course the RMN? Then Haven? Plus, of all the polities, Erewhon strikes me as having the most security. They don't just play at being secure, they are secure.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:07 am

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cthia wrote:I wonder if infiltrating Erewhon was somehow more difficult because they kept jumping ship. Until UH, I wasn't aware Erewhon was originally allied with the SL. Then of course the RMN? Then Haven? Plus, of all the polities, Erewhon strikes me as having the most security. They don't just play at being secure, they are secure.


It was in one of the early books that, along with the embargo, wooing Erewhon into the Manticore Alliance was one of the biggest wins the Cromarty government had achieved pre-war. Erewhon was also not stupid: they knew that siding with the SL would eventually mean being absorbed. At the time, we didn't know what that meant, since we hadn't heard of the OFS and their practices, so it wasn't clear that siding with the MA was the lesser of the evils.
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Re: ?
Post by munroburton   » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:11 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I wonder if infiltrating Erewhon was somehow more difficult because they kept jumping ship. Until UH, I wasn't aware Erewhon was originally allied with the SL. Then of course the RMN? Then Haven? Plus, of all the polities, Erewhon strikes me as having the most security. They don't just play at being secure, they are secure.


It was in one of the early books that, along with the embargo, wooing Erewhon into the Manticore Alliance was one of the biggest wins the Cromarty government had achieved pre-war. Erewhon was also not stupid: they knew that siding with the SL would eventually mean being absorbed. At the time, we didn't know what that meant, since we hadn't heard of the OFS and their practices, so it wasn't clear that siding with the MA was the lesser of the evils.


Erewhon was originally threatened by the PRH's expansion. That's why it was considering joining the League, bypassing OFS protectorateship, to full membership possibly by trading part ownership in their wormholes. The Manticoran Alliance offered a measure of protection and defense(albeit not as massive as the League) without sacrificing that.

Once Haven wasn't a threat to it, it had no real requirements for protection which its own Navy couldn't supply, so they continued to be an independent star nation. Their departure from the Manticoran Alliance was directly as a result of Manticoran Government failings during the High Ridge administration.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:19 am

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Even Alphas can fall short of the Mensa prize it seems. They were paying too much attention to the political and diplomatic side of things and not the hardware side of things when Collin set up his network. Personally, I can understand that, given how long ago the network had to have been inserted. Is it too optimistic to think the network is as old as King Roger? Which suggests the Alignment may not have been aware of Project Gram at the time.

Forgive the length of the post. The faucet was left running. Oops. Besides, I'm going to need the water.

Office of the Director of Naval Operations
Gregor Mendel Tower
City of Leonard
Darius System


“Well, most of the hardware was pretty much off-the-shelf. We’d already been tweaking the torpedo’s drive for you, and the gravitic sensors are out of our own grav com R&D. The biggest problem was power supply, really. My people haven’t been able to duplicate the Manty micro fusion plants yet. I think they’re on the track, and I’m actually predicting that they’ll pull it off in the next T-year or so, but it won’t be any sooner than that. Assuming Collin’s people don’t manage to steal the plans for us. Any chance of that?”

“’Fraid not.” Benjamin shook his head, his expression much less cheerful than it had been. “I had a report from him a couple of days ago. Apparently, the Manties are rolling up his networks in a big way. We always knew there was a risk of that—once those bastards Zilwicki and Cachat blew the top off, they were bound to start looking under every rock—but this appears to be worse than our worst-case assumptions. So far, we don’t have a clue how they’re doing it, and however they’re pulling it off, they’re obviously working their way down from the top. It seems to be spreading to Beowulf, too, although it looks like it’s going slower there. And I’m afraid we took out his best bet for getting us the kind of info your people need ourselves. Oyster Bay killed a lot of the agents he’d managed to insert into their construction units."

“I wish I could say I was surprised,” Daniel sighed, then shrugged. “Well, knowing something can be done is two thirds of figuring out how to do it. I wish we’d been paying more attention to the hardware side of things and less to the political and diplomatic side when Collin set up his networks, but I think we’ve at least identified the right paths forward for a lot of their stuff. Now it’s just a case of hammering through, and God knows we’ve got enough motivation!”

He smiled with very little amusement, and Benjamin nodded in both understanding and agreement.

Daniel’s researchers had yet to duplicate most of the cornucopia of hardware which had flowed out of Roger Winton’s long-term prewar R&D. In fact, they hadn’t even identified all of it yet. As Daniel had just suggested, they were making progress—in fact, their rate of progress continued to increase—but they remained far behind and he was unhappily certain the Manties weren’t resting on their laurels. Worse, now they were comparing notes with Haven. There was a reason Sonja Hemphill and Shannon Foraker were right at the top of Collin’s Assassinate As Soon As Possible list. If there were two navies in the galaxy who understood the need to stay ahead of the technological curve, it was the RMN and the RHN, especially under Hemphill and Foraker. It was unlikely, to say the least, that the Alignment was going to overcome the edge in their hardware anytime soon.

“Well, without micro plants of our own,” Daniel continued, “what my people had to do was to throw together a new fuselage big enough to let us graft together the power packs of two Wraiths. It’s…large.”

Benjamin snorted. The Wraith was the Mesan Alignment Navy’s equivalent of the Manty Ghost Rider recon platforms, and without Manticore’s new stealth systems—and their damned thumbnail fusion plants—building something equally hard to see had been a challenge. The good news was that the spider drive’s gravitic signature was incredibly faint compared to conventional impellers, so it didn’t require as much stealthing in the first place. The bad news was that the drive itself took up a lot of space and its plasma-charged accumulators took up almost as much. From the sketchy information they’d been able to assemble on Ghost Rider, a Wraith was probably at least seventy percent bigger than a current generation Manticoran recon drone. It was also much slower and lacked Ghost Rider’s FTL capability, but it was probably at least as difficult to detect, and indications were that its onboard sensors were a bit better even than the RMN’s current hardware.

But if Daniel was talking about something big enough to carry a pair of Wraith power packs, then he was talking about something which was probably at least two or three times as big as the MAN’s graser torpedo… which was already nearly twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM. In which case, calling it “large” was something of an understatement, especially from the perspective of the man whose navy would be trying to deploy the damned things.

“How large a ‘large’ are we actually talking about here?” he asked.

“Try sixty-eight meters long and right on eleven and a half in diameter.” Benjamin winced. That wasn’t quite as bad as he’d feared, but it was still over ninety percent the size of a Manticoran Shrike-class LAC.

“I imagine it’s fair to call that ‘large,’” he said judiciously. “The final version’s going to be at least a couple of meters longer,” Daniel warned him. “That sixty eight meters is basically the carrier, the graser, and the power supply. We’ve designed four different nose sections, and I won’t know which one we’re using until I know how the software tweaks finally resolve.” He shrugged. “On the other hand, given that it’s already way too big to fire from anything we’ve got, including Detweiler’s torpedo tubes, I figure a few more meters here or there won’t hurt.”

“Probably not,” Benjamin agreed. He sat for a moment, eyes gazing into the distance and fingers drumming on his desk while he thought. Then he nodded to himself and refocused on his brother’s face.

“Unless we can figure out a way to carry these things externally without anybody noticing them, which seems unlikely, we’ll have to swim them out of a standard cargo hold. Will that be workable?”

“Don’t see any reason why not.” Daniel chuckled. “As a matter of fact, I figured you’d have to do that, so I’ve got another team busy designing what looks like a pair of standard Rhino-class heavy-lift cargo containers glued together end-to-end. We can fit one of these things into something that size and even tuck a presser into one end of the container. I figure that would let you drop the ‘Rhinos’ with the clock set for the Silver Bullet to deploy itself once the deploying ship’s gotten well clear.”

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:47 am

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cthia wrote:Even Alphas can fall short of the Mensa prize it seems. They were paying too much attention to the political and diplomatic side of things and not the hardware side of things when Collin set up his network. Personally, I can understand that, given how long ago the network had to have been inserted. Is it too optimistic to think the network is as old as King Roger? Which suggests the Alignment may not have been aware of Project Gram at the time.

As I understand it, that was also the failing of the intelligence services for the Peoples' Republic of Haven. They were too busy checking the political organization that they were going to fight, to check what weapons were going to be brought to that fight. Perhaps this results from the Peep experience that a multi-star system could easily overwhelm a single star system.

The Mesan Alignment also expected Haven to win, so might not have bothered with a major infiltration of Manticore. I only remember an incursion into the political side, who was eliminated after the downfall of the High Ridge government. From At All Costs, chapter 2:
"Fortunately, our best and highest surviving contact in Manticore wasn't in Zilwicki's files and remained in place. She wasn't really what we could consider a reliable asset—she was using us as much as we were using her, and she definitely had her own agenda—but Descroix was willing to do what she could to mitigate Manty operations against us and assist with damage control domestically in the wake of the 'Manpower Incident' in return for our financial support and the intelligence we could provide her. Unfortunately, she was completely unwilling to do the main thing we wanted out of her."
"Which was?" Sandusky prompted, as if he didn't already know the answer to his own question, when she paused.
"Which was to get rid of the damned cease-fire," Aldona said flatly. "We wanted Manticore and Haven shooting at each other again. To be frank, at that time, the Strategy Committee was actually more concerned about Haven than Manticore. Manticore has the bigger merchant fleet, and the stronger tradition of arrogating some sort of interstellar police power to itself, even to the extent of locking horns with the League. But the Republic is much larger, and the new régime there clearly has a 'crusading spirit,' whereas the High Ridge régime in Manticore was about as venal—and shortsighted—as we could have asked for. Unfortunately, neither side, each for its own reasons, wanted to resume hostilities. And initially, at least, it looked like something of a toss-up as to whether or not Theisman and Pritchart could make their new Constitution stand up. For at least a few years, they were going to be involved in what amounted to a civil war, even if they managed to win it in the end.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:21 am

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If the RF is going to be the new Dudley Doright of the Mounties, RFC is going to have to decide where to place them on the war porn scale as far as their tech base. Certainly they'll be better armed than the SLN. Especially since the roles will be reversed. As were the Manties, they will be the much smaller entity trying to survive against a much larger foe, or how would they appeal to anyone. And, they're going to have to flex their muscles and make a pointed demonstration in some form or fashion. The Verge? Talbott? Only their tech base will keep them in shouting distance. Also the plight of the MA.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:45 am

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cthia wrote:If the RF is going to be the new Dudley Doright of the Mounties, RFC is going to have to decide where to place them on the war porn scale as far as their tech base. Certainly they'll be better armed than the SLN. Especially since the roles will be reversed. As were the Manties, they will be the much smaller entity trying to survive against a much larger foe, or how would they appeal to anyone. And, they're going to have to flex their muscles and make a pointed demonstration in some form or fashion. The Verge? Talbott? Only their tech base will keep them in shouting distance. Also the plight of the MA.

For shame, besmirching the good name of Dudley Do-Right!

According to the original plan, they would not have been the smaller entity; instead the Solarian League and its war opponent would both have been shattered and the Renaissance Factor would have served as the nucleus of the new state rising out of the chaos. At some point in this rise they would reveal their commitment to genetic improvement.

Giving the situation that prevails after UH, I am not sure what their stance should be. However I do not see how it could involve military adventure; since they might not fare well against the League, much less the members of the Grand Alliance. It is not clear that their military power is much greater than that of the Maya Sector.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:01 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If the RF is going to be the new Dudley Doright of the Mounties, RFC is going to have to decide where to place them on the war porn scale as far as their tech base. Certainly they'll be better armed than the SLN. Especially since the roles will be reversed. As were the Manties, they will be the much smaller entity trying to survive against a much larger foe, or how would they appeal to anyone. And, they're going to have to flex their muscles and make a pointed demonstration in some form or fashion. The Verge? Talbott? Only their tech base will keep them in shouting distance. Also the plight of the MA.

For shame, besmirching the good name of Dudley Do-Right!

According to the original plan, they would not have been the smaller entity; instead the Solarian League and its war opponent would both have been shattered and the Renaissance Factor would have served as the nucleus of the new state rising out of the chaos. At some point in this rise they would reveal their commitment to genetic improvement.

Giving the situation that prevails after UH, I am not sure what their stance should be. However I do not see how it could involve military adventure; since they might not fare well against the League, much less the members of the Grand Alliance. It is not clear that their military power is much greater than that of the Maya Sector.

But, how were they to become that nucleus? It wasn't going to simply be given unto them. What was going to be their carrot? And, what? No naval strength? They'd be beat down by the surviving core of the SL. Say what you will about the MA and the RF, I stand by my thoughts made long ago. If you don't have a navy to police your borders, your borders will become someone else's concern.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:26 am

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cthia wrote:But, how were they to become that nucleus? It wasn't going to simply be given unto them. What was going to be their carrot? And, what? No naval strength? They'd be beat down by the surviving core of the SL. Say what you will about the MA and the RF, I stand by my thoughts made long ago. If you don't have a navy to police your borders, your borders will become someone else's concern.


That we don't exactly know.

Mannerheim has a very strong navy for a SDF ( they have multiple Dreadnaughts at the very least, and one could assume shipyards to build more) and the RF control several wormholes between them. The guess is Darius will be the secret bad guy, disrupting civilization, who the RF will defend against. Another thought espoused some time ago was the possibility of some plague - which genetic engineering in the RF would solve. Since it isn't written, all we can do is guess. Heck, we're still waiting for the Maya Crisis to unfold, as was mentioned in a "history" blurb at the beginning of ToF.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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