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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:56 am

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cthia wrote:Thanks, everyone.

I asked because the narration in UH says "...since a missile can't generate a sidewall..."

Whether it is possible or not, an impeller is a requirement? So, the slower graser torp has no chance of acquiring extra protection in the future?

Well bubble sidewalls don't require a wedge. OTOH the generators for those are so large that even ships as large as SDs don't carry them; despite how useful they'd be if ever forced into combat within a grav wave. Only forts, designed to normally fight without an active wedge, make the space for a bubble sidewall generator.

But normal sidewalls, and full bow/stern walls have to tie into an active wedge. We don't know for sure whether that's true of a buckler wall; but I tend to suspect it is.


Also RFC has said that spider drives don't work through a bubble sidewall; so the GT would have to coast while it's up. Plus, they're visible on grav sensors, so your super stealthy undetectable torpedo would have to cut acceleration and make itself far more visible in order to make itself somewhat more able to take a hit. Seems like a bad trade-off even if you ignore size and power requirements for it.
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 pm

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tlb wrote:<snip>

Does the fusion plant need an operator? If so, then it is out of contention. Remembering that the defensive graser is replacing a single-shot mine, it is already 4 or 5 times as flexible as the object it replaced. With enough of them, it would not be necessary to recharge until after the action was over and the mines might still be present in reserve.


Grasers always need (and have) a local ring capacitor for energy storage - they just pull too much power for a ship's power systems to continuously power. When removed from ship's power, they usually have enough power stored for a shot or 2

A real world analogue is a pneumatic tool. All pneumatic tool systems have a pressure tank involved along with the compressor. The compressor alone is insufficient to give the pressure the tools connected to it require. Instead, there is a tank which is pressurized higher than the tools required and stepped down by regulators to the tools. The compressor tops off the tank, which alone would only have the storage capacity for a short duration of activity.

Adding to the above thoughts on the SLN starship reactors - they are huge!!! with CREWS of people to man each one. Even if you could run one continuously without crews for a lengthy period of time, you wold have a device larger than a Shrike - you would need to add cooling and fuel storage along with the reactor, along with a larger RCS system, etc....

But adding an (already) stealthy, self contained RMN micro-fusion reactor would give slow drip recharging capability for the Graser in a small self contained package that required only periodic maintenance.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:51 am

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Theemile wrote:But adding an (already) stealthy, self contained RMN micro-fusion reactor would give slow drip recharging capability for the Graser in a small self contained package that required only periodic maintenance.

Did we reach a concensus on whether the micro-fusion reactor was "dirty"? That it is only used on missiles makes me wonder whether prolonged running would contaminate its surroundings (requiring sensitive electronic components to have anti-radiation shielding, etc). If so, then it might not be usable on a device that would require manual servicing on a periodic basis.

I remember there was some discussion that emissions from the reactor would mean that it was not stealthy. However that can be papered over with more anti-radiation shielding. Anyway in a missile the wedge is more prominent and also serves to hide the reactor.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:13 pm

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tlb wrote:I remember there was some discussion that emissions from the reactor would mean that it was not stealthy. However that can be papered over with more anti-radiation shielding. Anyway in a missile the wedge is more prominent and also serves to hide the reactor.

Supposedly the reactor in a recon drone needs to be serviced between uses, and is so trivial to do that the tiny crew of a minimally crewed DD can easily and routinely do it. So no, it doesn't get dangerously radioactive.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:48 pm

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Discussion about the Silver Bullets.

I missed the fact that the Alignment are on the path to cracking the secret of the micro-fusion plant. I didn't know they knew that the fusion plant is the secret in the first place. Just another memo I didn't get. Of course, they had a fly in the ointment all along. This network of spies is where they got the truth behind Manty miniaturization. I can't understand why the SL doesn't, at least, suspect it. Where did Haven stand in their knowledge about Manty miniaturization back in the good old days?
UH wrote:“Well, most of the hardware was pretty much off-the-shelf. We’d already been tweaking the torpedo’s drive for you, and the gravitic sensors are out of our own grav com R&D. The biggest problem was power supply, really. My people haven’t been able to duplicate the Manty micro fusion plants yet. I think they’re on the track, and I’m actually predicting that they’ll pull it off in the next T-year or so, but it won’t be any sooner than that. Assuming Collin’s people don’t manage to steal the plans for us. Any chance of that?”

“’Fraid not.” Benjamin shook his head, his expression much less cheerful than it had been.

You have to wonder what other Alignment goodies the breakthrough will enable. The estimated timetable for the breakthrough ensures it will be available for the next encounter.

I don't recall anyone mentioning it in this thread.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:40 pm

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UH wrote:“I wish I could say I was surprised,” Daniel sighed, then shrugged. “Well, knowing something can be done is two thirds of figuring out how to do it. I wish we’d been paying more attention to the hardware side of things and less to the political and diplomatic side when Collin set up his networks, but I think we’ve at least identified the right paths forward for a lot of their stuff. Now it’s just a case of hammering through, and God knows we’ve got enough motivation!”

He smiled with very little amusement, and Benjamin nodded in both understanding and agreement.

Daniel’s researchers had yet to duplicate most of the cornucopia of hardware which had flowed out of Roger Winton’s long-term prewar R&D. In fact, they hadn’t even identified all of it yet. As Daniel had just suggested, they were making progress—in fact, their rate of progress continued to increase—but they remained far behind and he was unhappily certain the Manties weren’t resting on their laurels. Worse, now they were comparing notes with Haven. There was a reason Sonja Hemphill and Shannon Foraker were right at the top of Collin’s Assassinate As Soon As Possible list. If there were two navies in the galaxy who understood the need to stay ahead of the technological curve, it was the RMN and the RHN, especially under Hemphill and Foraker. It was unlikely, to say the least, that the Alignment was going to overcome the edge in their hardware anytime soon.
“Well, without micro plants of our own,” Daniel continued, “what my people had to do was to throw together a new fuselage big enough to let us graft together the power packs of two Wraiths. It’s…large.”

Benjamin snorted. The Wraith was the Mesan Alignment Navy’s equivalent of the Manty Ghost Rider recon platforms, and without Manticore’s new stealth systems—and their damned thumbnail fusion plants—building something equally hard to see had been a challenge. The good news was that the spider drive’s gravitic signature was incredibly faint compared to conventional impellers, so it didn’t require as much stealthing in the first place. The bad news was that the drive itself took up a lot of space and its plasma-charged accumulators took up almost as much. From the sketchy information they’d been able to assemble on Ghost Rider, a Wraith was probably at least seventy percent bigger than a current generation Manticoran recon drone. It was also much slower and lacked Ghost Rider’s FTL capability, but it was probably at least as difficult to detect, and indications were that its onboard sensors were a bit better even than the RMN’s current hardware.

But if Daniel was talking about something big enough to carry a pair of Wraith power packs, then he was talking about something which was probably at least two or three times as big as the MAN’s graser torpedo…which was already nearly twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM. In which case, calling it “large” was something of an understatement, especially from the perspective of the man whose navy would be trying to deploy the damned things.

Bold gets the gold. My reading comprehension fails me here. Are they saying they're on the right track to a lot of the Manty stuff, or a lot of their own stuff? I guess in the end they are one and the same.

Duplicating Ghost Rider??? :o Aww shi—!


And. Let's not forget that a certain sexy techno-dweeb said, "The mortal enemy of perfect is good enough."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:21 am

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cthia wrote:Bold gets the gold. My reading comprehension fails me here. Are they saying they're on the right track to a lot of the Manty stuff, or a lot of their own stuff? I guess in the end they are one and the same.

Duplicating Ghost Rider??? :o Aww shi—!


And. Let's not forget that a certain sexy techno-dweeb said, "The mortal enemy of perfect is good enough."


No, they're saying that they've identified what makes most (but not all!) Manty hardware tick. Duplicating something once you know it's possible is the 20% left and mostly the D in R&D. This is especially aided by espionage, both in Haven's case during the wars and in the MAlign's case now. But how quickly they can get there is an unknown. After all, 20% of a 40-year effort is 8 years.

In Corporate Strategy, we learn something called "First Mover Advantage." It applies to the company that first develops a technology or product and markets it. When managed correctly and unless there's a disruption, a first mover advantage sustains itself, since the mover will still be ahead when subsequent products and technologies are deployed. The competitors will need less R&D, but unless they find something to undercut the advantage, they'll never be ahead.

The same applies here and your quoted passage mentions it. (And, after all, "strategy" comes from the Greek strategós στρατηγός, which means "army leader" and is the rank equivalent to General) The MAlign is aware that the RMN and RHN will not let their advantage slip and will continue to develop new technologies. Even more difficult, with the cessation of hostilities, much less of this HW is going to be making out to the field where it could be lost and analysed.

PS: on Wraith's sensors being better than a GR, there's the fact that it is twice as big. With a bigger area, you can have more sensors available, even if you can't dedicate more volume to them.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:54 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:In Corporate Strategy, we learn something called "First Mover Advantage." It applies to the company that first develops a technology or product and markets it. When managed correctly and unless there's a disruption, a first mover advantage sustains itself, since the mover will still be ahead when subsequent products and technologies are deployed. The competitors will need less R&D, but unless they find something to undercut the advantage, they'll never be ahead.

Though done incorrectly, especially when combined with a bit of sunk cost fallacy, and you can instead get a first mover disadvantage.

Come out with something revolutionary, but ultimately slightly flawed and by the time widespread real world usage highlights the flaw are you've already sunk a lot of money into production lines for version 1.0. A competitor can look at how to make a somewhat improved version with a lot less investment; and without having to replace or change-up existing production lines. That can possibly let them jump past you and with less research costs to recoup can possibly sell it a bit cheaper too.

To keep your first mover advantage you've got to be willing to sink even more money in to quickly rev to improved versions instead of sticking with version 1.0 until you've recouped most of your sunk costs.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:20 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Bold gets the gold. My reading comprehension fails me here. Are they saying they're on the right track to a lot of the Manty stuff, or a lot of their own stuff? I guess in the end they are one and the same.

Duplicating Ghost Rider??? :o Aww shi—!


And. Let's not forget that a certain sexy techno-dweeb said, "The mortal enemy of perfect is good enough."


No, they're saying that they've identified what makes most (but not all!) Manty hardware tick. Duplicating something once you know it's possible is the 20% left and mostly the D in R&D. This is especially aided by espionage, both in Haven's case during the wars and in the MAlign's case now. But how quickly they can get there is an unknown. After all, 20% of a 40-year effort is 8 years.

In Corporate Strategy, we learn something called "First Mover Advantage." It applies to the company that first develops a technology or product and markets it. When managed correctly and unless there's a disruption, a first mover advantage sustains itself, since the mover will still be ahead when subsequent products and technologies are deployed. The competitors will need less R&D, but unless they find something to undercut the advantage, they'll never be ahead.

The same applies here and your quoted passage mentions it. (And, after all, "strategy" comes from the Greek strategós στρατηγός, which means "army leader" and is the rank equivalent to General) The MAlign is aware that the RMN and RHN will not let their advantage slip and will continue to develop new technologies. Even more difficult, with the cessation of hostilities, much less of this HW is going to be making out to the field where it could be lost and analysed.

PS: on Wraith's sensors being better than a GR, there's the fact that it is twice as big. With a bigger area, you can have more sensors available, even if you can't dedicate more volume to them.

I thought that is what they meant, but wasn't sure. Especially since further down the page they admitted to not having even identified a lot of the RMN's tech.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:47 pm

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The whole GRAM project did a masterful job of keeping things quite.

We also know that a great deal of what penetration the Alignment had into the Manticore manufacturing was lost though Oyster Bay ---also known as shooting yourself in the foot- though to be fair there was no way the Alignment could warn any of it's people even if they were actual Malign agents vs people who were doing only corporate espionage and though they were working for competitors on things. Another set of conduits lost.

From what we see of SEM, it's military, at least, is quite prepared to make the upgrades to ships and equipment as the improvements come. At the moment the problem is the need to replace everything as far as manufacturing/shipyards and general fabrication vs converting a line or starting one new line to make things. Note that the variation of equipment across the whole of RMN actualy is fairly substantial. While there are a LOT of ships below the wall using various earlier models of weapons systems and gear, the capital ships have been recycled fairly quickly and most of the new prodiction of ships and systems have been with the newer if not newest gear. They have a fairly large number of ships which are "legacy" units with older missile and gear though much of that had been getting upgraded where there was a reasonable ability to so it. So Manticore was keeping things like missle producdtion lines for the older weapons going to provide things that would work in the magazines..
That is one reason that most of those ships are in places like Silesia. There they are still very effective against local tech levels. Even if the legacy production lines are gone there will be a need to keep some level of spare or consumable equpment available at least until RMN settles on the next series of warships and begins to scrap or othewise dispose of older and seriously damaged ships. Hawkwing, Honor's 1st hypercommand, would not likely be still retained other than in Silesia even if it had not been destroyed in the Peep commerce raiding plan.

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that the Alignment has caught on to or implimented the automation levels the RMN has been using. I'm surprized that the Alignment hasn't tried to go after at least some of the earlier Manticore Lite Tech that Erwhon has and is using to upgrade it's own navy and the Maya Region SDF. That would provide examples of interm steps and should show lines of progression.
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