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Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:It occurred to me, when war begins with the MA, that their commerce raiding strategy can turn out to be really devastating. Hordes of invisible sharks raiding commerce can be a very nasty ordeal. And, would it matter if some of the sharks are destroyed? Their crew complement is small, isn't it? And comparatively, some subs bit the dust too. But they gave a lot more than they ever got.

Of course, their commerce raiding strategy would be nastier because of its unavoidable "take no prisoner" approach.

If they've got enough sharks. Because with the best will in the world a shark can only raid commerce in part of one system as a time. Even if they don't have to worry a bit about escorts or enemy warships there may just not be enough sharks in existence to put a major dent in commerce.

(If they use missiles or graser torps then they need to worry about how long it take to resupply, if they close to energy range they can hit fewer targets because freighers are faster than sharks so even though the can't be seen the sharks can only get with 1,000,000 km or so many targets)

As far as we know the MAlign had only built a few dozen sharks; that's all they expected to need to train crews. Against the commerce of the galaxy that's not even a drop in the bucket. Now if they're willing to wait they could of course build more (presumably in exchange for building fewer Lenny Dets than they otherwise could) - but it'll be years before they're likely to have enough spider ships to manage a widespread effective commerce raiding strategy.

I'm projecting a decade or two into the future, if Honor's offspring are to become the focal point of the series, along with a few other favorites. A few decades could change the malignant equation quite emphatically. It also assumes that the Sharks can be built much faster than the Whales. PLUS, it takes into account that the Lennys are already ready.

Oh oh oh, I forgot. You've got to expect the MA will resupply from stealthed equivalents of the CW. And they may be able to do it SLN style. On the fly. Which is one SL feature I think is cool.

cthia wrote:I'm projecting a decade or two into the future, if Honor's offspring are to become the focal point of the series, along with a few other favorites. A few decades could change the malignant equation quite emphatically. It also assumes that the Sharks can be built much faster than the Whales. PLUS, it takes into account that the Lennys are already ready.

As far as we know, they're not going to. RFC has apparently scrapped the idea of a jump forward, at least as far as her children being senior enough to be in leadership anad command positions. At best, we're going to see them graduate. Of course, RFC can change his mind again.

In any case, I don't see the point of a cruiser-sized spider-drive ship. The Lenny Det's advantage is its punching power, much higher than even an SD. A cruiser-sized ship won't be as worthy an opponent. And with its acceleration disadvantage, it's easy prey to a GA destroyer escort.

It can be far from the convoy's route and deploy a set of graser torpedoes in advance, once the convoy translates in or by knowing its schedule. How far it can be and still have accurate targetting is a good question. I suppose hitting freighters is easier than shooting the broadside of a barn, but they're not going to catch the escort like that. So the Shark had better be very far away when that happens.

Besides, how are the Sharks going to be inserted? A month in advance, just in case a worthy convoy is spotted? And in non-GA system, where the picket won't come and investigate. How many ships and crews will the MAlign dedicate to this? For what return?

MA Sharks have Spider drive but all the GT they carry were mounted externaly. It sounded like the Sharks also carried the various ballistic weapons and that was probably internal (like pods- packaged sets of thing that go live and or launch subvmunitions just as they reach their targets.

Given that they won't have to contend with system sensor nets like Mantiocre (and possibly Grayson to a lesser extent) sharks could still be forward deployed by freighters and then be left to "slowly" cruise to whatever rondevou positon to get picked up way outside of a system's hyper limit.

The thing is, they have several disadvantages of subs as well as advantages. Their primary weapons against ships would seem to be the GT's but they still have to get into a position such that they can have the GT intercept it's target. Given the Spider drive, these are not the speediest of weapons just very very very stealthy. So the Shark would need to be more or less placed well ahead of a target to use a GT If you decide to load faster weapons, your talking about impeller drive missiles or energy weapons and they somebody is going to see the launch/fireing even just outside a hyperlimit- and there will be tracking ability. Finding the Shark might no be easy but, like a sub, once you know roughly where it is, you can avoid it.

The LennyDet's have the same problem. And we still don't know how fast they are.

Brigade XO wrote:MA Sharks have Spider drive but all the GT they carry were mounted externaly. It sounded like the Sharks also carried the various ballistic weapons and that was probably internal (like pods- packaged sets of thing that go live and or launch subvmunitions just as they reach their targets.

Given that they won't have to contend with system sensor nets like Mantiocre (and possibly Grayson to a lesser extent) sharks could still be forward deployed by freighters and then be left to "slowly" cruise to whatever rondevou positon to get picked up way outside of a system's hyper limit.

The thing is, they have several disadvantages of subs as well as advantages. Their primary weapons against ships would seem to be the GT's but they still have to get into a position such that they can have the GT intercept it's target. Given the Spider drive, these are not the speediest of weapons just very very very stealthy. So the Shark would need to be more or less placed well ahead of a target to use a GT If you decide to load faster weapons, your talking about impeller drive missiles or energy weapons and they somebody is going to see the launch/fireing even just outside a hyperlimit- and there will be tracking ability. Finding the Shark might no be easy but, like a sub, once you know roughly where it is, you can avoid it.

The LennyDet's have the same problem. And we still don't know how fast they are.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I brought it up earlier it the thread that they can be deployed by freighters, specially built freighters. These freighters can also drop one of the bottom feeders, unobtrusively, right into the path of a convoy. That tactic may only work for awhile until word gets around. If it gets around. Matter of fact, even if there are survivors, it can't be assumed the Shark wasn't already there.

Also, I was imagining hordes of Sharks, exceeding the number of LACs.

BTW, TM, just when and where did RFC drop that little memo?

cthia wrote:That's exactly what I was thinking. I brought it up earlier it the thread that they can be deployed by freighters, specially built freighters. These freighters can also drop one of the bottom feeders, unobtrusively, right into the path of a convoy. That tactic may only work for awhile until word gets around. If it gets around. Matter of fact, even if there are survivors, it can't be assumed the Shark wasn't already there.

Also, I was imagining hordes of Sharks, exceeding the number of LACs.

I hadn't considered the possibility of being dropped by a freighter inside the hyperlimit, like the Silver Bullets were. I was thinking an insertion like for Oyster Bay, which would attract attention if detected. So the only question would be how far the non-capital systems can detect a hyper translation. But if a "legitimate" freighter came calling in a system without too much traffic, it could drop off a Shark without anyone realising it was there. The Shark then would loiter for a a few weeks or months, waiting for a convoy worthy of breaking its cover; deploy the torpedo and run for it before the torpedo struck.

Lots of problems with this. Starting with the chance that the Shark would see no convoy worthy of breaking the cover for. That means a wasted effort and a tied down ship. Breaking the cover can only happen once per system and only a few times at all in the Galaxy, before the defenders start to figure out alternatives.

Second, the possibility that the MAlign can make as many of those as there are LACs. The Sharks are 4 million tonnes; LACs are under 40k tonnes. The 100x difference in mass means you hardly can make equal numbers of those, from a single-system polity compared to three polities with over three dozen systems each. At best, they could be in the same order of magnitude as Grayson. Not to mention that building a 4-million tonne ship takes much longer than a hyper-incapable 30k tonne LAC.

Third, the freighters themselves. You need one freighter per Shark due the Shark's size and because the freighter must actually carry freight to the system being targetted. Absolutely no freighter goes to a system without something to deliver or pick up, short of an emergency. If suddenly a couple thousand more non-GA-flagged freighters started showing up in GA worlds, the trend would be picked up.

If instead of Sharks you meant Ghosts (which are scout ships), the situation changes a little. It has the advantage of being much smaller, so it can be built in much larger quantities. I suppose up to a dozen could be carried by a single freighter, each one or maybe each pair dropped in a system, though I wouldn't expect more than half a dozen. But as disadvantages, the Ghosts have smaller surface so their spider drives are even weaker. And they might also be hyper-incapable, meaning they have to RV with a ship to pick them up. That's double the chance of detection, plus it removes the ability to stay longer in case a juicy convoy show up. Not to mention that if a freighter is caught with Ghosts still onboard, it's an intelligence gold-mine. Even if it self-destructs.

BTW, TM, just when and where did RFC drop that little memo?

He confirmed in the podcast with Gadi Evron a few months ago. Part 1 on YouTube. I'm sure I posted the exact time when he said so in some other thread, but I'd have to rewatch all of it to find out the exact timing again, or find my post.

PS: you do want to watch the very end, after everyone says the goodbyes. David has an "oh by the way".

The graser torps can obviously stay active at a low power level for months. So you kick a bunch out, they wait some time to wake up and maneuver to attack some fixed installation/orbiting ship or to go to somewhere they can intercept a nice ship entering or leaving.

Once you figure out there are graser torps wandering around your system, what do you do next?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:That's exactly what I was thinking. I brought it up earlier it the thread that they can be deployed by freighters, specially built freighters. These freighters can also drop one of the bottom feeders, unobtrusively, right into the path of a convoy. That tactic may only work for awhile until word gets around. If it gets around. Matter of fact, even if there are survivors, it can't be assumed the Shark wasn't already there.

Also, I was imagining hordes of Sharks, exceeding the number of LACs.

I hadn't considered the possibility of being dropped by a freighter inside the hyperlimit, like the Silver Bullets were. I was thinking an insertion like for Oyster Bay, which would attract attention if detected. So the only question would be how far the non-capital systems can detect a hyper translation. But if a "legitimate" freighter came calling in a system without too much traffic, it could drop off a Shark without anyone realising it was there. The Shark then would loiter for a a few weeks or months, waiting for a convoy worthy of breaking its cover; deploy the torpedo and run for it before the torpedo struck.

Lots of problems with this. Starting with the chance that the Shark would see no convoy worthy of breaking the cover for. That means a wasted effort and a tied down ship. Breaking the cover can only happen once per system and only a few times at all in the Galaxy, before the defenders start to figure out alternatives.

Second, the possibility that the MAlign can make as many of those as there are LACs. The Sharks are 4 million tonnes; LACs are under 40k tonnes. The 100x difference in mass means you hardly can make equal numbers of those, from a single-system polity compared to three polities with over three dozen systems each. At best, they could be in the same order of magnitude as Grayson. Not to mention that building a 4-million tonne ship takes much longer than a hyper-incapable 30k tonne LAC.

Third, the freighters themselves. You need one freighter per Shark due the Shark's size and because the freighter must actually carry freight to the system being targetted. Absolutely no freighter goes to a system without something to deliver or pick up, short of an emergency. If suddenly a couple thousand more non-GA-flagged freighters started showing up in GA worlds, the trend would be picked up.

If instead of Sharks you meant Ghosts (which are scout ships), the situation changes a little. It has the advantage of being much smaller, so it can be built in much larger quantities. I suppose up to a dozen could be carried by a single freighter, each one or maybe each pair dropped in a system, though I wouldn't expect more than half a dozen. But as disadvantages, the Ghosts have smaller surface so their spider drives are even weaker. And they might also be hyper-incapable, meaning they have to RV with a ship to pick them up. That's double the chance of detection, plus it removes the ability to stay longer in case a juicy convoy show up. Not to mention that if a freighter is caught with Ghosts still onboard, it's an intelligence gold-mine. Even if it self-destructs.

BTW, TM, just when and where did RFC drop that little memo?

He confirmed in the podcast with Gadi Evron a few months ago. Part 1 on YouTube. I'm sure I posted the exact time when he said so in some other thread, but I'd have to rewatch all of it to find out the exact timing again, or find my post.

PS: you do want to watch the very end, after everyone says the goodbyes. David has an "oh by the way".

Sharks are 4-5 Mtons or so, I doubt you could physically shoehorn one's dimensions into a freighter without dismantling the freighter to do it. Remember the geometry of a Spider ship is different than a wedge ship - it is short and squat with 3 rib facings. Think a roughly pyramidal structure. The Shark was probably much wider than an 8 Mton wedge freighter.

Also, GHOSTS were already dropped off via freigher in system - I don't remember if it was inside the hyperlimit, or on route to the wormhole, but they used strap on cold gas thrusters to exit standard freighter holds.

But don't get your combat hopes up... the ~50 Kt Ghosts wern't even armed with a canopener - they had no offensive weapons what-so-ever. Like the sharks, they were testbeds/trainers. Heck, we don't even know if the Sharks mounted an anti-shipping laser. Remember - they were not intended to be the attack units, the follow-on classes were, and their limited # were pushed into service with the few crews that had been trained.

So yeah, bring on the Sharks and the Ghosts for round 2 - this might be fun.

cthia wrote:BTW, TM, just when and where did RFC drop that little memo?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:He confirmed in the podcast with Gadi Evron a few months ago. Part 1 on YouTube. I'm sure I posted the exact time when he said so in some other thread, but I'd have to rewatch all of it to find out the exact timing again, or find my post.

PS: you do want to watch the very end, after everyone says the goodbyes. David has an "oh by the way".

You might also want to look at this interview from before Mission of Honor was published. In it he discusses the changes that resulted because Honor did not die in the Battle of Manticore in At All Costs. He gives a brief description of what Honor's death scene would have been.
Storm from the Shadows interview

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Sharks are 4 million tonnes
[snip]

Third, the freighters themselves. You need one freighter per Shark due the Shark's size and because the freighter must actually carry freight to the system being targetted. Absolutely no freighter goes to a system without something to deliver or pick up, short of an emergency. If suddenly a couple thousand more non-GA-flagged freighters started showing up in GA worlds, the trend would be picked up.

Also a freighter capable of physically carrying a 4 million ton warship is going to be a specialized beast, along the lines of the MV Blue Marlin) - the Shark is the same size as your average tramp freighter and still half the size of the largest freighters around. So a freighter able to carry one is something even a casual inspection would show has absolutely no business in most systems, since it'd be really bad at carrying normal cargo due to being able to instead carry large ships.
But if it's got no plausible reason for being there then it's a really poor covert insertion method.

However - to hide the hyper emergence the Shark wouldn't need to be physically carried by the freighter. They just need to do a linked emergence (kind of like the shoal of Sharks did approaching Manticore). That will look pretty similar to a single ship emergence and can be done with a perfectly stock tramp freighter. Just do it far enough out that the Shark has time to slip away before any patrol ship might swing by close enough to get a visual.



Also if we're talking about a build up of commerce raiders some years off, Sharks are less that ideal. They were built as sub-scale simulators for the Lenny-Det capital ships; training up the crews and letting the MAlign do physical war games to work out tactics. (Also they'll have the issues of any first ever prototype - as they were the first armed spider ships ever built). You should be able to design a somewhat smaller spider design optimized for commerce raiding before putting anything into mass production. Still I suspect physically carrying the raiders isn't the ideal tactic; even if they mass well under 4 million tons.

kzt wrote:The graser torps can obviously stay active at a low power level for months. So you kick a bunch out, they wait some time to wake up and maneuver to attack some fixed installation/orbiting ship or to go to somewhere they can intercept a nice ship entering or leaving.

Once you figure out there are graser torps wandering around your system, what do you do next?

Targetting orbital infrastructure and other fixed targets is something the MAlign can do with a Silver Bullet and a Q-ship. They don't need a Shark for that.

The Shark, Ghost or something intermediary would be needed to give targetting instructions for a target that is not fixed and whose timing isn't known with precision. I also think it needs to be in-system when the torpedo is activated, even if already high-tailing out at its best acceleration of 100-150 gravities, as weapons in the Honorverse don't appear to be able to operate autonomously (Silver Bullet apparently the exception). If nothing else, leaving an unfired GT in the path of a convoy is reckless: the GT could break down or be stumbled upon, thereby giving the GA access to an intact spider drive.

And what to do once you find one of those? Scout around the convoy with Ghost Riders and shape a slightly-dogleg course for convoys, instead of the least time course. Adding half an hour or an hour is probably acceptable to interstellar shipping.

PS: graser torpedoes are complete overkill for freighters. In fact, regular grasers are overkill.