Growing the Honorverse: towards Haven as a map centerpoint?

jtg452 wrote:
If I recall correctly, the Reserve didn't just consist of wallers. Got to have the proper screening and scouting forces, after all, and 2000 wallers at 6 to 8 per squadron means a LOT of screen and scouts if you are following SOP. Granted, there were more hulls under the Wall of Battle in service rather than in mothballs and their BC numbers in service had taken a pounding in the Buccaneer raids, but I still don't see Honor leaving Sol as long as the SLN is even remotely a threat.

There were relatively few under the Wall in the Reserve Fleet. Frontier Fleet was supposed to pick up most of the scouting/escort function for the reactivated reserve SDs.

Honor's launch against the Reserve Fleet near Ganymede effectivly destoryed the majority of them. Not that that many were actuay in condition and ready to go back into commission. Everything else belonging to the SLN was scuttled and ALL of the repair facilities and everything other than Habatats were destroyed.

Then there is the part about NO SLN ship will be allowed to go outside SL space---that also means that none of them are going to be allowed into places that OFS had anything to do with. Period....on pain of death....If they are encountered the GA will open fire and destroy said SLN ships...no discussion, just shoot to kill.

Will the SL/SLN be allowed to move beyond SL space (as circumscribed by the GA per the Harrington Terms? Probably eventualy, but not now. At best, Kingsford (and the Ghosthunters) etc are going to need to spend 99% of their time rooting out Alignment problems and setting the SLN and other SL departments of government in order. That will take a few years (well, decades) and if they keep the GA updated on progress (or lack of it) they will probably eventualy will start being a bit involved. The entire government and miliary is like some really bad swiss cheese- riddled with holes and corruption. Eventualy they will make some progress. There is no way the GA is going to let the SLN go sailing around looking for anything. They will have more than enough trouble keeping "local" problems between remaining SL members from blowing up into wars to do anything more than try to maintain commerce protection.

Brigade XO wrote:Honor's launch against the Reserve Fleet near Ganymede effectivly destoryed the majority of them. Not that that many were actuay in condition and ready to go back into commission. Everything else belonging to the SLN was scuttled and ALL of the repair facilities and everything other than Habatats were destroyed.

We don't know that Honor destroyed the majority of the entire Reserve. We do know she destroyed almost all of Reserve One, but we don't know how many ships that is.

It's almost a given that any mothballed reserve ships that were in Sol were scuttled along with the 450 active SDs. No sense in leaving them around if the repair facilities and habitats were gone, after all.

However, we don't know that the entire Reserve was in Sol. I wouldn't put it past the current bureaucrats to put all the eggs in one basket, since the SLN was invincible after all and Sol was the best protected system in the known Galaxy. But it wasn't those bureaucrats that made the decision. The policy had already been in place for centuries and may have been established when conditions were different (smarter bureaucrats or not so well protected system). That means there could be reserve yards in one or more other SLN major stations.

Then there is the part about NO SLN ship will be allowed to go outside SL space---that also means that none of them are going to be allowed into places that OFS had anything to do with. Period....on pain of death....If they are encountered the GA will open fire and destroy said SLN ships...no discussion, just shoot to kill.

Not exactly. They will be treated as pirates. Pirates can be spaced on summary judgement and ships engaging in piracy can be shot out of the sky. But the RMN and IAN record on dealing with pirates is much less harsh. They do attempt boarding and do accept surrenders, then turn the crews over to local authorities.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Honor's launch against the Reserve Fleet near Ganymede effectivly destoryed the majority of them. Not that that many were actuay in condition and ready to go back into commission. Everything else belonging to the SLN was scuttled and ALL of the repair facilities and everything other than Habatats were destroyed.

We don't know that Honor destroyed the majority of the entire Reserve. We do know she destroyed almost all of Reserve One, but we don't know how many ships that is.

It's almost a given that any mothballed reserve ships that were in Sol were scuttled along with the 450 active SDs. No sense in leaving them around if the repair facilities and habitats were gone, after all.

However, we don't know that the entire Reserve was in Sol. I wouldn't put it past the current bureaucrats to put all the eggs in one basket, since the SLN was invincible after all and Sol was the best protected system in the known Galaxy. But it wasn't those bureaucrats that made the decision. The policy had already been in place for centuries and may have been established when conditions were different (smarter bureaucrats or not so well protected system). That means there could be reserve yards in one or more other SLN major stations.

Then there is the part about NO SLN ship will be allowed to go outside SL space---that also means that none of them are going to be allowed into places that OFS had anything to do with. Period....on pain of death....If they are encountered the GA will open fire and destroy said SLN ships...no discussion, just shoot to kill.

Not exactly. They will be treated as pirates. Pirates can be spaced on summary judgement and ships engaging in piracy can be shot out of the sky. But the RMN and IAN record on dealing with pirates is much less harsh. They do attempt boarding and do accept surrenders, then turn the crews over to local authorities.

As I mentioned above, there are 5 other reserve groups outside the Sol system , Reserve One was the largest. The other 5 are all in the core, co-located with large SLN BattleFleet bases.

It was mentioned that there were ~180 BCs in the reserve, and they were be already being reactivated for the BC assaults we saw in UH.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Actually, since Honor didn't kill the crews when she destroyed the 450 SDs is SOl orbit, those crews are still available to man whatever SDs are around outside of the Sol system. (no point in committing an atrocity that will echo for centuries - a point the Malign seem to have forgotten).

Ah, I'd though of (but omitted mentioning, in an attempt at brevity) the returned POWs from Crandel and Fillaretta's forces being able to man some of the Reserve; but totally overlooked the crews that bailed out at Sol.

Now, before Honor wiped out the ships stored at Mars One, the Reserve was several times the size of the active SLN but we don't know how much survived. Still even if the vast majority of the Reserve ships survived having all the remaining active SLN personnel assigned replacement ships out of it would be a significant start on manning the Reserve.

There are several layers of questions of what the SLN can and/or are able to do with the ships they still have either active or in the remaining reserves plus the Navy people.

I have to wonder if at this point Technodyne is still in operation of the GA had arrived and is in the process of stamping though everything looking for information. That also applies to any Technodyne employees who are anywhere in the SL.

Kingsfored appears to have reached the decision long since that any of the wallers in the reserves are little more than scrap as far as facing the GA. What is left of the active duty wallers is probably sufficent to handle what the SL is contracting down to but he is faced with a trade-off of bringing back up things like DDs through Heavy Crusiers from the remaining reserves but not much in the way of capasity of upgradning anything on them. Not even to any version of Cataphract missiles.

Not clear how good and what the capasity is of the remaining SLN yards (or private ones they also use) as far as maintaining the active ships they have left and do the work to put a lot of the Reserve Fleet back into service. On one hand, everything that has been out with FF is going to have to go back to SL territory and while they may also be bringing SLN yard people etc with them the actual yards may no longer be avaiable and other than their own repair ships not be able to be shipped home in pieces. The yards may belong to people on in the systems they were constructed in and most of that may be now out of reach.

There is also the not so small problem that the financial structure and cashflow of the various League Departments is in the crapper. All those "fees" from everywhere the OFS had been "protecting people" plus administration fees to FF and then all the taxes and fees related to interstellar trade and transport. That was crashing due to the Lacoon's and now many of those sources are now outside of SL reach and control. Tough to buy new warships if you have no money and your credit is shot. Also at the moment the SLN has no new or improved designes (that we know about but the GA certainly will have most of that) and the vast majority of new designs will be little better- if that- than the tech level when the SLN surrendered.

The SLN is also going to have a lot more people than the crew sizes of the ships they can use. All the people who's ships were destroyed at Sol plus Filerta's, Crandall's and whatever of Byngs who have not yet been moved back to some FF or BF base.



The other side of that is how many are going to leave the service for all sorts of reasons. One would be getting questioned and their nanite's kick in. Another is ruthless culling of people who really are unfit for duty or untrustworthy. There are also going to be a lot of high ranking officers in that. There will also be people who decide that they don't want to stay and would prefer to return to where they came from, particularly those who feel attachments to systems who are leaving the SL.

The BF/FF dilemma is going to get worse as it will probably become clear that the former FF people are much better at what the SLN is going to have to do in keeping the remains of the SL safe and functioning against interstellar threats, particularly now problems between systems which have to this point been kept at a lower level because of the abiity of the SLN to intervene in such disputes along with the other Administrative Departments of the Secretaries

And then there is the question of the SL Gendarmerie scattered out through places OFS has been plus systems that are now leaving the League.

Perhaps some bake sales to pay for spair parts? Going to be intersting. Might even see all sorts of really old ships being sold along with old weapons to gap funding. And that will just make things somewhat worse.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:And those ships could be given a worthwhile task for a change. Besides, a refurbished League has a lot of motivation to find the entity that pushed them over the cliff. With so many ships, they can afford to use a standard search pattern. LOL

I'm sure someone can suggest that, but they don't realise just how big space is...

With 1000 capital ships left, if each ship had to visit one star system, do you know how far they'd go? On our stellar neighbourhood, the stellar density is 0.14 stars per cubic parsec. 1000 stars can be found in a volume of just 7142 pc³. That's a radius of less than 12 parsecs (less than 40 light-years). That isn't big enough to even reach Beowulf.

If the SL is a sphere of 100 pc (326 light-years) in radius, its volume should have about 30 million stars. If the SLN sends 3000 ships to investigate, that's 10000 visits per ship. If each ship could visit on average one system a day (which it can't), that's a 27-year search and that's only inside the SL.

Plus it keeps their military employed and exercised. They will be on point. It's dangerous for the point man when beating the jungle, but that's the price of their rehabilitation.

Don't get me wrong, I think the SLN should join the search for the MAlign. I've said before I think Kingsford should request that from the GA, plus the right to go after the rogue SLN ships that are setting themselves up as warlords in the Verge and the Shell.

But that search is not an exhaustive star system by star system search. That search starts with the Ghost Hunters. That's a team of at most 30 people and a pair of ships.

Way ahead of you. It is what I suggested as my opening post on this subject upstream. The Sollies have never known the tactic of concentrating their fire. But here, as an effect of ghost hunter data, they can. I was not proposing a standard search pattern in random systems, but as a condition of ghost hunter data. "We have leads that point to systems X1-X7. X22-X23. Might be a long slow search, but those grids would be picked clean.

And, as I said upstream, beating the jungle oftentimes flushes out prey. Suspicious ships can be shadowed like the Andermani shadowed an RMN ship. "You move, I move." Just one ship will be very limited tactically.

Theemile wrote:The Sollies are on notice that any of their formations outside their territorial (Official, Internationally Recognized Territorial) space is forfeit. Unless something changes, the only job for the SLN is checking under their own beds.

I'm suggesting a little leeway afforded them by the GA. Diplomacy. I don't think it's too late in the game for the SL to rediscover diplomacy, even construct an embassy on Manticore.

The corrupt sexual deviants of the SL had beds scattered all about the galaxy. The slave lines took them all over hell's perdition. If they are to look under all of THEIR beds, the Ghost Hunters should be given lots-o-leeway.

I'm going to speculate that the Ghost Hunters, once they get any kind of handle on backtracing what they now guess to be Alignment corruption and the information flows to and from agents, are going to request though Kingsford a contact with the GA.

That is about the only way, short of running Black operations in the SL, that anybody is going to be able to get out and follow any sorts of leads. It is POSSIBLE that a suitable representive or two from the Ghost Hunters might be able to meet with somebody on the GA side outside of SL territory- in a very secure location and with a Treecat present (I did say very secure)- and discuss this. Getting out of the SL is not that hard. What is hard is getting SLN ship and personel out and moving around. A couple of people going off planet and then making various connections can work. Keeping the Alignment out of it is a differnt story.
If the Alignmnet is as good as they think they are, there may be all sorts of contacts with ordinary criminals etc which could be used to gather information and watch people. More or less normal gang activity or criminal networks/crime families have been known to engage in corporate espionage and kidnapping or extortion so something that might need some cover from the SL/SLN but be nominaly just "regular" crime could have pieces subcontracted and no outright Alignment activity or trace.

The first part of getting the SLN or somebody in the Justice Dept is buiding up enough information on where and who to look at without people dropping dead.

David once said that for every "dot" on the map of civilization in the Honorverse in 1923 pd, there are at least 50 other map points of humanity's attempt to civilize the stars. Lost human colonies, colonies that didn't take, marginal colonies of a few handful of people scraping by, mining colonies, former mining colonies, habs or stations which are active in the middle of no where, or served a purpose centuries ago, and forgotten. Pirate camps, Slavers, military installations, etc, etc. 2 Millennium of human flotsam.

And we don't know that the Malign is not living on an "known world." Heck, they could be living on Beowulf itself. Using interstellar contacts, they built their stealth ships in a random legimitate dock some time in the past and covered it up. Are we going to interview EVERYONE, everywhere in the Honorverse in our search?

And for every system with a human touch, there are dozens without. The SL doesn't even know what is in it's own "inter" space. (The Felix wormhole and Sanctuary/Bolthole are 2 prime examples) To go system by system, map them all, find every human trace, analyse it, sift it, and determine it's Malignishness...



good luck... It will be easier to sift through Mesan garbage dumps.

There are maps of known human colonised systems. They are probably not either all compleat nor are they all accurate. The question would by why?

A lot of people have been to a lot of places and what gets put on publicly available maps is driven by various preceived needs. One is trade, another is security, a third is what is required (or wished for) for navigation. There are others which we can think of in terms - for a planet in an example- of geography, weather, political and distributions of plants and animal. And then there is fun stuff like taxation and census maps.

Do you know where Bethlehm is in New Hampshire or why or, other than the people who live there, what keeps it in business (or at least as an organized town? Or Dayville in CT (village, not town) or Eastville in NY or the Parish of Amity? I do but really only because I had a reason to learn.
One that's a bit famous is Pitcairn Island in the Pacific. When it was first visited by a British European ship (had been earlier inhabited but lost it's population and earlier European visits don't seem to have added it to presently known mapping) there was an error in the mapping location and the next known "visit" was by the HMS Bounty after the mutiny. Decendents of the people who were on that ship are still living there today but it is a tiny population.
And then there are/were places that a bunch of people knew about but not much detail like the pirate base used by Jean Lafitte near New Orleans in the early 19th century.

So in the Honorverse we have all sorts of place that have probably been visited but essentialy unknown or forgotten even if there are humans still living there.
We have the now SEM with it's Junction, massive navy with strong tradition and expereince in commerce protection and even more massive merchant marine fleet. And yet while "Manticore" or even the RMN knows about a lot of places and things, it doesn't have or can't seem to access information. Oh it probably has recoreded where pirate bases have been and all sorts of places it's ships have been. It also maintains records and relationships for place it needs to deal with or are interesting for military/polictial/trading reasons, but there is a lot it doesn't know. Like when they were sending out warships for Lacoon II and while the commander we see taking a chain of wormhole bridges knows where they are and something about the closest inhabited systems (from the appendexes of his order) he doesn't have the local detail such as would be provided by local Astro Control. Probably any given MMM star freighter captain or 1st officer (or navigator) will have all sort of information in their memories and probably written down for their own use, much of that is not uploaded to any centralized database.

So, yeah, there are a lot of places that might be, if not actualy hidden on purpose, then essentialy forgotten.
And now we have the Alignment which has an entire network of wormholes that only known to a select limited number with at least one inhabited planet hidden behind said network as the core of their new hidden empire. Just a bit more involved than Captain Nemo's secret base for the Nautilus.