Growing the Honorverse: towards Haven as a map centerpoint?

jtg452 wrote:Had a huge fleet.

Past tense.

Honor made a point of taking out the Reserve, remember?

It was still big, even after the attack on Naval Station Ganymede. It's entirely obsolete and must be destined for the breakers, but it's still big and powerful against anyone except the GA.

First, the number of missiles that the GF fired was not enough to destroy 8000 ships. We know that "Reserve One" was destroyed, but we don't know how many ships were in that designation.

Second, there were still plenty of active SDs in the SLN. They started the war with 2000. Crandall lost 73 in Spindle and Filareta 431 in Manticore, plus Honor ordered some 450 scuttled after the "Battle" of Sol. That leaves about 1000 left, not including any ships from the reserve that managed to be reactivated during the year of hostilities.

Before Sol, the SLN was the biggest navy in number of SD hulls. After, it's possible the RHN had more (and all modern SD(P)s at that), depending on the exact number of ships that were being built and whether they were completed after the second war ended.

Don't be surprised when the Solarians are involved with (gasp!) Black Victor and Company's continuing search. The military intel group that flushed out 'The Other Guys' aren't likely to stop any time soon. Once they get done delousing the surviving upper echelons of the reformed Solarian League, they aren't going to stop without some pay back.

RFC has all but said that this is part of the next Crown of Slaves book. He mentioned that some Ghost Hunters were going put in an appearance, so draw your conclusions.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The timeline fits. Colony ships weren't usually sent via hyperspace until Adrienne Warshawski and her detectors in 1273 PD. The Jason left Earth in 775 PD. There are 500 years' worth of colony ships being sent, usually further and further away. More, even, if you consider daughter colonies from worlds before they got the news of the Warshawski detectors.

The well-known expeditions could be intercepted in interstellar space. In fact, I wonder why the Manticore Colony Trust Ltd. didn't do that for nearly 200 years.

The problem is all the ones that fell through the cracks. Those are still out there.

I don't think a wormhole connecting to a world just settled is likely. More likely is a young colony getting a visit from a sub-light colony ship that had been in transit for a couple of centuries and has now just arrived.

I just noticed that among the questions answered in the end of House of Steel, was one asking if there were still sub light colony ships moving through the Honorverse. RFC did not make a definite reply.

tlb wrote:I just noticed that among the questions answered in the end of House of Steel, was one asking if there were still sub light colony ships moving through the Honorverse. RFC did not make a definite reply.

Indeed, so he left the door open. My guess is that it simply hasn't been relevant to the story and won't be.

But in the larger sense, if you think of undiscovered colonies, not simply of colony ships, we did get to hear about one: Sanctuary. When House of Steel was published, the existence of Bolthole was already known, but RFC hadn't revealed the location to anyone yet.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Had a huge fleet.

Past tense.

Honor made a point of taking out the Reserve, remember?

It was still big, even after the attack on Naval Station Ganymede. It's entirely obsolete and must be destined for the breakers, but it's still big and powerful against anyone except the GA.

First, the number of missiles that the GF fired was not enough to destroy 8000 ships. We know that "Reserve One" was destroyed, but we don't know how many ships were in that designation.

Second, there were still plenty of active SDs in the SLN. They started the war with 2000. Crandall lost 73 in Spindle and Filareta 431 in Manticore, plus Honor ordered some 450 scuttled after the "Battle" of Sol. That leaves about 1000 left, not including any ships from the reserve that managed to be reactivated during the year of hostilities.

Before Sol, the SLN was the biggest navy in number of SD hulls. After, it's possible the RHN had more (and all modern SD(P)s at that), depending on the exact number of ships that were being built and whether they were completed after the second war ended.

Don't be surprised when the Solarians are involved with (gasp!) Black Victor and Company's continuing search. The military intel group that flushed out 'The Other Guys' aren't likely to stop any time soon. Once they get done delousing the surviving upper echelons of the reformed Solarian League, they aren't going to stop without some pay back.

RFC has all but said that this is part of the next Crown of Slaves book. He mentioned that some Ghost Hunters were going put in an appearance, so draw your conclusions.

Reserve One was only the largest of six reserve locations. There's are still thousands of SDs in the reserve at the other 5 locations.

Theemile wrote:Reserve One was only the largest of six reserve locations. There's are still thousands of SDs in the reserve at the other 5 locations.

And those ships could be given a worthwhile task for a change. Besides, a refurbished League has a lot of motivation to find the entity that pushed them over the cliff. With so many ships, they can afford to use a standard search pattern. LOL

Plus it keeps their military employed and exercised. They will be on point. It's dangerous for the point man when beating the jungle, but that's the price of their rehabilitation.

tlb wrote:Do we expect the MA to be found by ships? Personally I expect the ghost hunters and the Cachet - Zilwicki - Harahap trio (or quartet with the cat) to be more effective.

You may be right, but they can't walk. And if their adventures carry them to the Twilight Zone, they may end up needing a lifeline. Walla Walla Bang Bang, the Sollies are closer to completing their rehab by being heroes.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:Reserve One was only the largest of six reserve locations. There's are still thousands of SDs in the reserve at the other 5 locations.

And those ships could be given a worthwhile task for a change. Besides, a refurbished League has a lot of motivation to find the entity that pushed them over the cliff. With so many ships, they can afford to use a standard search pattern. LOL

Plus it keeps their military employed and exercised. They will be on point. It's dangerous for the point man when beating the jungle, but that's the price of their rehabilitation.

tlb wrote:Do we expect the MA to be found by ships? Personally I expect the ghost hunters and the Cachet - Zilwicki - Harahap trio (or quartet with the cat) to be more effective.

You may be right, but they can't walk. And if their adventures carry them to the Twilight Zone, they may end up needing a lifeline. Walla Walla Bang Bang, the Sollies are closer to completing their rehab by being heroes.

The Sollies are on notice that any of their formations outside their territorial (Official, Internationally Recognized Territorial) space is forfeit. Unless something changes, the only job for the SLN is checking under their own beds.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
It was still big, even after the attack on Naval Station Ganymede. It's entirely obsolete and must be destined for the breakers, but it's still big and powerful against anyone except the GA.

First, the number of missiles that the GF fired was not enough to destroy 8000 ships. We know that "Reserve One" was destroyed, but we don't know how many ships were in that designation.

Second, there were still plenty of active SDs in the SLN. They started the war with 2000. Crandall lost 73 in Spindle and Filareta 431 in Manticore, plus Honor ordered some 450 scuttled after the "Battle" of Sol. That leaves about 1000 left, not including any ships from the reserve that managed to be reactivated during the year of hostilities.

Before Sol, the SLN was the biggest navy in number of SD hulls. After, it's possible the RHN had more (and all modern SD(P)s at that), depending on the exact number of ships that were being built and whether they were completed after the second war...

Since Honor ordered the scuttling of all naval vessels in the Sol system- in exchange for her not blowing them up and bombing the system back to the Stone Age, I think that it's safe to conclude that the rest of the reserve is gone, too.

If I recall correctly, the Reserve didn't just consist of wallers. Got to have the proper screening and scouting forces, after all, and 2000 wallers at 6 to 8 per squadron means a LOT of screen and scouts if you are following SOP. Granted, there were more hulls under the Wall of Battle in service rather than in mothballs and their BC numbers in service had taken a pounding in the Buccaneer raids, but I still don't see Honor leaving Sol as long as the SLN is even remotely a threat.

Don't forget about her saying that any SLN vessel outside their territorial systems would be treated as a pirate, too.

jtg452 wrote:Since Honor ordered the scuttling of all naval vessels in the Sol system- in exchange for her not blowing them up and bombing the system back to the Stone Age, I think that it's safe to conclude that the rest of the reserve is gone, too.

If I recall correctly, the Reserve didn't just consist of wallers. Got to have the proper screening and scouting forces, after all, and 2000 wallers at 6 to 8 per squadron means a LOT of screen and scouts if you are following SOP. Granted, there were more hulls under the Wall of Battle in service rather than in mothballs and their BC numbers in service had taken a pounding in the Buccaneer raids, but I still don't see Honor leaving Sol as long as the SLN is even remotely a threat.

Don't forget about her saying that any SLN vessel outside their territorial systems would be treated as a pirate, too.

And even if there are reserve ships left (weren't some of the reserve's depots outside the Sol system?) we know the SLN didn't actually have reservist crews to man the ships they had.

So in order to use they they'd first need to enlist and train vast numbers of new officers and sailors. That's far different from trying to find useful work for the military they already have. (Sure, some of those ships could probably be assigned to surviving crews from the battles of Split and Manticore; but the reserve was much larger than the active fleet and the SLN never had a rational plan for how to activate it or get crews for it)

Jonathan_S wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Since Honor ordered the scuttling of all naval vessels in the Sol system- in exchange for her not blowing them up and bombing the system back to the Stone Age, I think that it's safe to conclude that the rest of the reserve is gone, too.

If I recall correctly, the Reserve didn't just consist of wallers. Got to have the proper screening and scouting forces, after all, and 2000 wallers at 6 to 8 per squadron means a LOT of screen and scouts if you are following SOP. Granted, there were more hulls under the Wall of Battle in service rather than in mothballs and their BC numbers in service had taken a pounding in the Buccaneer raids, but I still don't see Honor leaving Sol as long as the SLN is even remotely a threat.

Don't forget about her saying that any SLN vessel outside their territorial systems would be treated as a pirate, too.

And even if there are reserve ships left (weren't some of the reserve's depots outside the Sol system?) we know the SLN didn't actually have reservist crews to man the ships they had.

So in order to use they they'd first need to enlist and train vast numbers of new officers and sailors. That's far different from trying to find useful work for the military they already have. (Sure, some of those ships could probably be assigned to surviving crews from the battles of Split and Manticore; but the reserve was much larger than the active fleet and the SLN never had a rational plan for how to activate it or get crews for it)

Actually, since Honor didn't kill the crews when she destroyed the 450 SDs is SOl orbit, those crews are still available to man whatever SDs are around outside of the Sol system. (no point in committing an atrocity that will echo for centuries - a point the Malign seem to have forgotten).

cthia wrote:And those ships could be given a worthwhile task for a change. Besides, a refurbished League has a lot of motivation to find the entity that pushed them over the cliff. With so many ships, they can afford to use a standard search pattern. LOL

I'm sure someone can suggest that, but they don't realise just how big space is...

With 1000 capital ships left, if each ship had to visit one star system, do you know how far they'd go? On our stellar neighbourhood, the stellar density is 0.14 stars per cubic parsec. 1000 stars can be found in a volume of just 7142 pc³. That's a radius of less than 12 parsecs (less than 40 light-years). That isn't big enough to even reach Beowulf.

If the SL is a sphere of 100 pc (326 light-years) in radius, its volume should have about 30 million stars. If the SLN sends 3000 ships to investigate, that's 10000 visits per ship. If each ship could visit on average one system a day (which it can't), that's a 27-year search and that's only inside the SL.

Plus it keeps their military employed and exercised. They will be on point. It's dangerous for the point man when beating the jungle, but that's the price of their rehabilitation.

Don't get me wrong, I think the SLN should join the search for the MAlign. I've said before I think Kingsford should request that from the GA, plus the right to go after the rogue SLN ships that are setting themselves up as warlords in the Verge and the Shell.

But that search is not an exhaustive star system by star system search. That search starts with the Ghost Hunters. That's a team of at most 30 people and a pair of ships.