If Honor had died...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Throwing yet another spanner in the gears: what happens if during this period without operations, Oyster Bay happens? Would anyone in Manticore and the MA believe it wasn't the Havenites' last-ditch attempt at winning?

I'm assuming you meant GA above?

Wouldn't it have been obvious it couldn't have been Haven? They didn't have the sort of tech to have pulled that off. Manticore may have been able to pull it off with its stealth.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You say no one else would have come up with it, but it sounded like no one in Manticore. How about a Havenite? Say, Theisman or Pritchart? Or Protector Benjamin?

I maintain that Honor showed her strengths as a grand strategist, head and shoulders above the rest, with the conception of the Harrington Plan. But could a Grayson or Havenite have come up with it? A Havenite, possibly. Certainly if that Havenite is Theisman. A Grayson? Also possibly if all else were equal. All else wouldn't have been equal with Honor killed by a Peep, again. Old wounds would have been reopened for the Graysons. Revenge is what they'd seek. Crave even. "Lady Harrington and No Mercy."

Of course, Hamish could have come up with it now that I think about it. He could have gotten it from Honor as "pillow talk."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:So the way I see it, if the Havenites kill Honor and still lose the war, there is no path to the Grand Alliance. The Detweilers can do their happy dance.

I agree, for the most part. But a wild call would still exist. Namely, Haven One showing up in Manticore space. Pritchart could have used her own grief for Giscard to sympathize with Beth over losing Honor. They both could have had a moment. Bonded.

And of course, Eloise would have still come bearing the gift of admitting to the forged correspondence.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Throwing yet another spanner in the gears: what happens if during this period without operations, Oyster Bay happens? Would anyone in Manticore and the MA believe it wasn't the Havenites' last-ditch attempt at winning?

I'm assuming you meant GA above?

No, I meant the MA (Manticoran Alliance), since there is no GA yet. The GA happens when the war ends, the MA dissolves and reforms with Haven but without the Andermani.

Not to be confused with the MAlign.

Wouldn't it have been obvious it couldn't have been Haven? They didn't have the sort of tech to have pulled that off. Manticore may have been able to pull it off with its stealth.

That's the question. White Haven argued it couldn't have been Haven because they didn't have the technology, Pat Givens agreed. But the question is not the logical argument, it's whether the emotional load would have clouded the logical argument and prevented them from seeing the obvious.

In the normal timeline, Oyster Bay happened while Honor was in Haven, talking to Pritchart and Theisman. Those two knew the terms that Manticore was imposing were not harsh, so they'd have the interest in negotiating. They didn't have the interest in causing the Yawata Strike. But if Honor hadn't been there, if there had even been no peace envoy, what would they have been thinking? More to the point, what would the MA staff think they would be thinking?

I agree, for the most part. But a wild call would still exist. Namely, Haven One showing up in Manticore space. Pritchart could have used her own grief for Giscard to sympathize with Beth over losing Honor. They both could have had a moment. Bonded.

And of course, Eloise would have still come bearing the gift of admitting to the forged correspondence.

Very good points. The grief over losing Giscard can indeed be a powerful argument. I'd been wondering why that was never a source of contention between her and Honor in the first place; was never even mentioned.

I totally agree that Eloise seemed to take the loss of Giscard without cracking around the edges. She never showed any anger towards the enemy.* I put it down to her being relatively new as President, responsible for a relatively new regime that needed her to hold it together. I pictured her crying a river in her solitude. Also, remember that her relationship with Giscard had to be kept secret initially. I suppose she got comfortable with that act.

Now for another spanner in the worx.

The Manties and the Andermani had tension between them as thick as battlesteel that was finally breached because of the Alliance. Had Honor died and the result was no GA, the atmosphere between the two could have ignited. Mike could be having trouble right about now with the Andermani.

I totally agree with the possibility of grief clouding judgement(s). Which is why I tread lightly about anyone else thinking clearly enough to come up with Harrington's Plan. Perhaps a Havenite could've -- again, like Theisman -- if left to his own devices with the time to ponder it. Instead of being kept busy fighting a war fueled with hate over the loss of Honor.

*Now that I think of it, timeline permitting, you'd think the average human in Eloise's shoes would have been vengeful and put Michelle in the Stalag to rot forever. Again, timeline permitting.

cthia wrote:The Manties and the Andermani had tension between them as thick as battlesteel that was finally breached because of the Alliance. Had Honor died and the result was no GA, the atmosphere between the two could have ignited. Mike could be having trouble right about now with the Andermani.

The Andermani had been part of the Manticoran Alliance (which, now I realise, no one referred to as the "Manticoran Alliance" in the second war, just "Alliance") for nearly two years at this point. The tensions had been greatly de-escalated by the Battle of Manticore.

They could rise up again, no doubt, but I don't think we need to worry. The captains and flag officers who had worked with the Manties and Graysons would be helping the more hotheaded ones understand the new reality. There's at least 40 captains whose newly refitted Adler-class SD(P)s have a lot to thank the Alliance. There's also all the shipyard workers and officers who have worked with the Manty technical staff for the last year. And finally, there's Emperor, who now is involved in this, not just his cousin.

*Now that I think of it, timeline permitting, you'd think the average human in Eloise's shoes would have been vengeful and put Michelle in the Stalag to rot forever. Again, timeline permitting.

Why Michelle? She was nowhere near Lovat.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
The Andermani had been part of the Manticoran Alliance (which, now I realise, no one referred to as the "Manticoran Alliance" in the second war, just "Alliance") for nearly two years at this point. The tensions had been greatly de-escalated by the Battle of Manticore.

They could rise up again, no doubt, but I don't think we need to worry. The captains and flag officers who had worked with the Manties and Graysons would be helping the more hotheaded ones understand the new reality. There's at least 40 captains whose newly refitted Adler-class SD(P)s have a lot to thank the Alliance. There's also all the shipyard workers and officers who have worked with the Manty technical staff for the last year. And finally, there's Emperor, who now is involved in this, not just his cousin.

Thanks, you're just being nice. I simply screwed the pooch and timeline again. It's difficult for me to keep the timeline straight in this series. It's not like I get a relatively fluent read afforded by timely publishings like most of my favorite authors. RFC only puts out an HV book every other year. Sphinxian year that is.

cthia wrote:*Now that I think of it, timeline permitting, you'd think the average human in Eloise's shoes would have been vengeful and put Michelle in the Stalag to rot forever. Again, timeline permitting.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why Michelle? She was nowhere near Lovat.

Reckless revenge fueled by hate is never logical.

Michelle was guilty by association. She represents everything the SEM stands for. She is even in line to inherit the reigns of the enemy who killed her beloved. Besides, it was a perfect opportunity to make Beth hurt like she was hurting.

In fact, when Mike asked, paraphrasing, "What now, off to the Stalag with a stellar view?"

I was like, "No way honey. You're going to a rat-infested hell-hole with NO view! And she's going to feed you lies that Manticore is losing the war and Beth is dead. Yatta yatta yatta. And she's going to send news of your unfortunate incarceration to Manticore!"

That's how human nature works. Come on, who among us, besides our lovable Havenite resident roseandheather, could have expected Eloise's warm smile and reply?

In fact, if I were Michelle. I'd have swallowed bile right along with Eloise's smile and reply. "Oh, I'm sure we can do better than that."

What? Was she being facetious? Better how? Better good? Or better bad? Is what I'd've been thinking. Wait, that's exactly what I was thinking.

****** *

Another spanner in the worx.

Had Honor died and Nimitz lived. Nimitz and all the Treecats in the galaxy would have been pining for payment. Ariel included.

cthia wrote:Thanks, you're just being nice. I simply screwed the pooch and timeline again. It's difficult for me to keep the timeline straight in this series. It's not like I get a relatively fluent read afforded by timely publishings like most of my favorite authors. RFC only puts out an HV book every other year. Sphinxian year that is.

It's not that bad, or at least hasn't been. There's been at least one book every calendar year since OBS, except for 2017 and 2019, though in 2018 we had two (UH and MA3). And UH is renumbered as "Book 19" so some of the Saganami Island and Crown of Slaves books are now retroactively "mainline".

BTW, which ones?

cthia wrote:Thanks, you're just being nice. I simply screwed the pooch and timeline again. It's difficult for me to keep the timeline straight in this series. It's not like I get a relatively fluent read afforded by timely publishings like most of my favorite authors. RFC only puts out an HV book every other year. Sphinxian year that is.

cthia wrote:*Now that I think of it, timeline permitting, you'd think the average human in Eloise's shoes would have been vengeful and put Michelle in the Stalag to rot forever. Again, timeline permitting.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why Michelle? She was nowhere near Lovat.

Reckless revenge fueled by hate is never logical.

Michelle was guilty by association. She represents everything the SEM stands for. She is even in line to inherit the reigns of the enemy who killed her beloved. Besides, it was a perfect opportunity to make Beth hurt like she was hurting.

In fact, when Mike asked, paraphrasing, "What now, off to the Stalag with a stellar view?"

I was like, "No way honey. You're going to a rat-infested hell-hole with NO view! And she's going to feed you lies that Manticore is losing the war and Beth is dead. Yatta yatta yatta. And she's going to send news of your unfortunate incarceration to Manticore!"

That's how human nature works. Come on, who among us, besides our lovable Havenite resident roseandheather, could have expected Eloise's warm smile and reply?

In fact, if I were Michelle. I'd have swallowed bile right along with Eloise's smile and reply. "Oh, I'm sure we can do better than that."

Unless Honor's death really screwed the timeline, Michelle had been sent by Eloise to Manticore with the proposal for a meeting long before Giscard's death. If was due to the proposal carried by Michelle that the two heads of state were to meet at Torch; the meeting scuttled by Rat Poison and the death of the ambassador to the Solarian League.

By the time Giscard died, due to resumption of hostilities and the attack on Lovat; Michelle was in the Talbot Quadrant.

cthia wrote:Thanks, you're just being nice. I simply screwed the pooch and timeline again. It's difficult for me to keep the timeline straight in this series. It's not like I get a relatively fluent read afforded by timely publishings like most of my favorite authors. RFC only puts out an HV book every other year. Sphinxian year that is.

cthia wrote:*Now that I think of it, timeline permitting, you'd think the average human in Eloise's shoes would have been vengeful and put Michelle in the Stalag to rot forever. Again, timeline permitting.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why Michelle? She was nowhere near Lovat.

Reckless revenge fueled by hate is never logical.

Michelle was guilty by association. She represents everything the SEM stands for. She is even in line to inherit the reigns of the enemy who killed her beloved. Besides, it was a perfect opportunity to make Beth hurt like she was hurting.

In fact, when Mike asked, paraphrasing, "What now, off to the Stalag with a stellar view?"

I was like, "No way honey. You're going to a rat-infested hell-hole with NO view! And she's going to feed you lies that Manticore is losing the war and Beth is dead. Yatta yatta yatta. And she's going to send news of your unfortunate incarceration to Manticore!"

That's how human nature works. Come on, who among us, besides our lovable Havenite resident roseandheather, could have expected Eloise's warm smile and reply?

In fact, if I were Michelle. I'd have swallowed bile right along with Eloise's smile and reply. "Oh, I'm sure we can do better than that."

tlb wrote:Unless Honor's death really screwed the timeline, Michelle had been sent by Eloise to Manticore with the proposal for a meeting long before Giscard's death. If was due to the proposal carried by Michelle that the two heads of state were to meet at Torch; the meeting scuttled by Rat Poison and the death of the ambassador to the Solarian League.

By the time Giscard died, due to resumption of hostilities and the attack on Lovat; Michelle was in the Talbot Quadrant.

Thanks.

It's why I said, "If timeline permitting." I thought my timeline might've been skewed, because I can't see anyone not wanting to at least torture the first cousin of the head of government who killed your lover.

Still, Eloise seemed to have taken Giscard's death very well.

Something else. If Eloise had not released Mike, she could have used her as a bargaining tool later. As a peace offering.

Thanks for straightening my timeline.

cthia wrote:Something else. If Eloise had not released Mike, she could have used her as a bargaining tool later. As a peace offering.

Thanks for straightening my timeline.

Neither Beth nor Mike would have allowed that. Mike worked really hard so that she wouldn't be singled out for favours (to the point she overcorrected) and Beth would patently refuse to entertain an agreement to favour a family member that wouldn't apply equally to other RMN officers of similar rank.

Eloise must have had trouble convincing Mike in the first place to accept parole. Mike's reaction is to refuse anything like that. I need to reread the text to be sure, but I recall the parole had no strings attached, but Eloise kindly asked to pass the message along.

[Note: it was still a parole, so the regular rules for parolees apply]

SharkHunter wrote:--Snipping--

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yanakov was part of Eighth Fleet. At Lovat, he commanded the trapping forces. That tells me he was the seniormost officer, second only to Honor herself.

We actually know this one, because while Alfredo Yu is the commander of the Protector's Own and older/more experienced overall, that isn't the case in the GSN. Because Wesley Matthews was killed out at Blackbird because of Oyster Bay, Honor is theoretically next in command. Instead, Judah comes to her, and when she formally declines, he becomes the next High Admiral in command of all of Grayson's forces.

The Protector's Own is not part of the GSN. They have different uniforms, different organizational structure, and report directly to Benjamin in his persona as Protector of Grayson (almost wrote "Lord Protector" there. Fortunately, whatever the soi disant Loyal Opposition may think, Benjamin is not another Oliver Cromwell. Or they all would have gone for the chop, long ago.)

Although, given some of the antecedents of the Church of Humanity Unchained, I can almost see a Roundheads vs not quite so Roundheads face-off occurring. Which was the origin of The Faithful, I expect. And the Grayson Civil War, which continued until Hamish settled Masada's hash after Second Yeltsin.