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Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment

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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:16 pm

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Now you could definitely build a Q-CLAC that'd be likely to pass at a large freighter to even visual inspection - but the current ones look unmistakably like the warships they are.

Fox2! wrote:Called HMMC Wayfarer and her sisters. Who became too well known to be effective.

Being well known is not a disadvantage against pirates, since you want piracy to diminish and a pirate cannot simply blow up ships that they attack. This is unlike the behavior of commerce raiders in wartime, who are content to destroy ships to deny them to their enemies.


If they are a known entity to pirates, they are no better than a Lt Cruiser or Destroyer in piracy supression, both of which were much cheaper to operate than an AMC with it's huge crew (enough for 6+ older Destroyers - or 35 Rolands).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:26 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Now you could definitely build a Q-CLAC that'd be likely to pass at a large freighter to even visual inspection - but the current ones look unmistakably like the warships they are.

Fox2! wrote:Called HMMC Wayfarer and her sisters. Who became too well known to be effective.

tlb wrote:Being well known is not a disadvantage against pirates, since you want piracy to diminish and a pirate cannot simply blow up ships that they attack. This is unlike the behavior of commerce raiders in wartime, who are content to destroy ships to deny them to their enemies.

Theemile wrote:If they are a known entity to pirates, they are no better than a Lt Cruiser or Destroyer in piracy supression, both of which were much cheaper to operate than an AMC with it's huge crew (enough for 6+ older Destroyers - or 35 Rolands).

You misunderstand me; pirates knowing that Q-ships are operating in an area is not the same thing as knowing that a specific ship is armed and dangerous. As long as the sidewalls are not up, the Wayfarer looks exactly like a merchant ship (which is what she is structurally). As long as the transponder code is innocent, the pirate will have no clue. Because of that, pirates would rationally change their deployment patterns and the Q-ships will do that too. The result is fewer pirate attacks and a steady attrition of their numbers.

Perhaps you are right that there are cheaper ways to accomplish this; but in wartime, pirate suppression falls to ships that cannot be pulled off for the main fighting.
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:If they are a known entity to pirates, they are no better than a Lt Cruiser or Destroyer in piracy supression, both of which were much cheaper to operate than an AMC with it's huge crew (enough for 6+ older Destroyers - or 35 Rolands).

Well they can see off the rare pirate force that's too heavy, or too numerous for a CL to tackle. (Being the universe's first pod laying warship gives them a devastating offensive punch). That was, after all, their original design purpose. To ride along as (apparently) just another freighter in the fleet supply train but able to augment the escorting cruiser's firepower if the fleet convoy got jumped by something like a BC raid. In that role they were more useful than one additional CL.

But even once emergency repurposed to anti-piracy work with their 6 LACs they could spread out to picket a lot more of a given star system than a single ship can. And they do still have the advantage of looking like a merchant even under visual inspection - that might help occasionally keep from tipping a pirate, or the pirates contacts, off to the fact there's an armed ship present.

But still, there's a reason they were mostly withdrawn once Manticore got past its escort bottleneck (As much from capturing Trevor's Star as from additional units built). Even with the automation they incorporate they're still too manpower heavy to be ideal for anti-piracy work.
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:07 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But still, there's a reason they were mostly withdrawn once Manticore got past its escort bottleneck (As much from capturing Trevor's Star as from additional units built). Even with the automation they incorporate they're still too manpower heavy to be ideal for anti-piracy work.

As of the beginning of War of Honor, piracy is still a problem in Silesia and one solution is Q-ships:
Prologue:
By rights, the RMN should by now have reverted to its prewar stance throughout the Confederacy. It hadn't, and in some ways, the situation was even worse than it had been before the war. The Manticorans hadn't built their light forces back up to their traditional levels, which meant piracy continued to flourish largely unchecked in much of the Confederacy. Worse, some of the "pirates" out here had acquired rather more capable ships. None of them were bigger than cruisers, but so far the Manties and the IAN between them had destroyed at least three of those which had . . . left the service of the People's Republic of Haven and fled to find greener pastures elsewhere. That meant that not only had the level of lawless activity increased, but so had its scope, with more planetary raids added to run-of-the-mill piracy. Intelligence's most recent estimate was that as many as a quarter million Sillies had been killed in the last year alone.

Chapter 4:
Captain Thomas Bachfisch, owner and master of the armed merchant ship Pirates' Bane, was a lean, spare man with a thin, lined face. He was more than a little stoop-shouldered, and despite his immaculately tailored blue civilian uniform, he did not cut an impressive figure. Nor, for that matter, did Pirates' Bane. At around five million tons, the freighter was of little more than average size for most regions of space, although she did tend towards the upper end of the tonnage range here in Silesia.

*** snip ***

"The Bane may not look it, Oberleutnant, but she's as heavily armed as a lot of heavy cruisers. Most merchies can't afford the tonnage penalty and structural modifications to mount a worthwhile armament, but the Bane isn't like most merchies." He chuckled dryly. "As a matter of fact, she started life as a Vogel-class armed collier for your own Navy something like seventy T-years ago. I picked her up cheap when she was finally listed for disposal about ten T-years ago because her inertial compensator was pretty much shot. Aside from that, she was in fairly good shape, though, so it wasn't too hard to get her back on-line. I replaced and updated her original armament at the same time, and I put a good bit of thought into how to camouflage the weapon ports while I was at it." Another shrug. "So most pirates don't have a clue that the 'helpless merchant ship' they're about to close with and board is actually several times as heavily armed as they are.

*** snip ***

None of them were quite certain precisely what it was which had motivated their skipper to spend the past four decades amassing the financial resources to purchase, arm, and maintain what amounted to a pair of Q-ships of his very own. For that matter, no one—with the possible exceptions of Captain Laurel Malachi, Ambuscade's skipper, and Jinchu Gruber, the Bane's exec—had the least idea how the Captain had gotten his hands on the warrant as a naval auxiliary which let him evade the Confederacy's prohibition against privately owned armed vessels.
Last edited by tlb on Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:15 pm

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So what would a David Brown Fast Support ship with a module of LACs and it's CL level off-bore missile capasity and CM and lightspeed countermeasurs plus EMC capability do to a pirate? Or a commerce raider at least into the CL range?

Those are dangerous warships for all they are "supply" ships I think this has come up on at least one other thread. If they are facing (for the next 5 years probably) any ship up to SLN current weapons & equipment at CL or less, they are probably going to be sucessful agains a commerce raider. Run of the mill pirates are dogmeat.

How likely is it that SEM is going to use some of them i this roll? That depends........ It would probably be heavily politicaly motivated to protect systems that were independnet of the SL but "close" in terms of distance or those that are leaving the SL and having "pirate" problems. Nasty shock, a Charlie Wilson, if you have no idea what your facing.
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:09 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:So what would a David Brown Fast Support ship with a module of LACs and it's CL level off-bore missile capasity and CM and lightspeed countermeasurs plus EMC capability do to a pirate? Or a commerce raider at least into the CL range?

Those are dangerous warships for all they are "supply" ships I think this has come up on at least one other thread. If they are facing (for the next 5 years probably) any ship up to SLN current weapons & equipment at CL or less, they are probably going to be sucessful agains a commerce raider. Run of the mill pirates are dogmeat.

How likely is it that SEM is going to use some of them i this roll? That depends........ It would probably be heavily politicaly motivated to protect systems that were independnet of the SL but "close" in terms of distance or those that are leaving the SL and having "pirate" problems. Nasty shock, a Charlie Wilson, if you have no idea what your facing.


unfortunately, it looks like a warship - hammerheads and all. it's milspec wedge will stand out.

Even though it has a Lt cruiser armament (I'm think something similar to a Kammerling) and the 8 LACS, you don't want it to get in a fight - it's just too valuable. The LACs are really just enough for self defense - 8 is just not enough to hold a system for any appreciable amount of time against heavy forces. A LAC module would give the extra kick for adventerous fun, but I don't like them - using 4 such modules would give the 3.5 Mton ship 152 LACs - 40% more than the 6 Mton Wayvern design
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:52 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:So what would a David Brown Fast Support ship with a module of LACs and it's CL level off-bore missile capasity and CM and lightspeed countermeasurs plus EMC capability do to a pirate? Or a commerce raider at least into the CL range?

Those are dangerous warships for all they are "supply" ships I think this has come up on at least one other thread. If they are facing (for the next 5 years probably) any ship up to SLN current weapons & equipment at CL or less, they are probably going to be sucessful agains a commerce raider. Run of the mill pirates are dogmeat.

How likely is it that SEM is going to use some of them i this roll? That depends........ It would probably be heavily politicaly motivated to protect systems that were independnet of the SL but "close" in terms of distance or those that are leaving the SL and having "pirate" problems. Nasty shock, a Charlie Wilson, if you have no idea what your facing.

Unless very unlucky they'd crush such a pirate - the LACs alone are more than enough to kill even a quite modern CL or CA (or an older BC) and I assume she mounts the LERM missiles of the Avalon-class CL so she'll out-range pirates or some commerce raiders in a missile duel (while the LACs could significantly boost her missile defenses).

However it's a gross misuse of resources to send them pirate hunting. An RMN CL or one of the newer DDs would do as well (though lack the additional coverage the LACs could provide) while taking far fewer crew and being far cheaper to operate. Manticore doesn't have enough fast support ships to waste them flying around solo hoping to run into pirates.
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