Mesan Alignment post war

Sigs wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:
First. there are enough alpha lines both within and without "the onion" who seem to still have that human frailty known as a conscience. One of them (O'Hanaran) is primed to do maximum damage outside because she's also in the business of publication. Hmmm... what if our dear reporter friend -- who likely does NOT have a suicide protocol built in -- gets within range of a treecat and does NOT drop dead>

I might have missed it, but isn't she a alpha line but might not know it, there might be a lot of alpha lines but some of them, even in the core systems would have separated from the onion through the generations or maybe had a generation that was not promising and was dropped by the onion only for a later generation to show promise but it would be too late.

She knows or should. I have forgotten which book, but if the Gamma line report who fed her the info from New Tuscany knew she was alpha line, it seems highly improbable that she doesn't know.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Because they are a threat.

Who says they are a threat?

If some nation 500 or 600 years from now turns up and says "we come in peace" and means it, war is unlikely, even if they are revealed to be the descendants of the Alignment. The GA would demand explanations and accountability for those responsible for the atrocities, but in the end if they've turned around, redeemed themselves by creating an actually good society, the GA might consider the debt settled.

Explanation from who exactly? All the people who committed the attacks would be long dead, as would all of the leaders who planned them and ordered them, so who exactly owes the explanation and why? No one in 2423 will have had anything to do with the attacks and no one would have suffered because of the attacks. There would be hundreds of years of bad blood from other nations with more recent quarrels to worry about.

But that's not what you're saying they would be planning. They'd be planning on going to war. Even if there's a cold war brewing with another power and the leadership has changed, if this new state is proven to be preparing for war, the GA will have to find the funds to fight it.

Yeah, once they PROVE that the MA is planning a war. Going to war once the MA becomes a threat is a little different than going to war, based on attacks from 400 or 500 years ago, the second they announce their existence.

The discussion seems to be whether it should pre-emptively strike. I don't think it will. At the very least, after this long, there would be a need to prove conclusively that they are the descendants of the Alignment who escaped. There would have been a few false leads over the centuries.

And then you justify why they deserve to be defeated in war, because they are the descendants of the MA that attacked Manticore, Grayson and Beowulf not the actual people who did so.

tlb wrote:Whether or not this is a possibility, does not matter if it is not the story that RFC chooses to write. So maybe you are correct that the Malign could pull it off; but I am going to wait for the next book and see what the real story is to be.

Why would I want the Malign to come up with a perfect plan, when I want them to lose?

Sigs wrote:I'm not saying I can correct it or even that it needs correcting, I am asking of a scenario where they escape and how that affects the galaxy in General and the GA members specifically.

You may have begun by just asking the question; but from the tone of your text, it appears that you believe you have the only correct answer. In the scenario that you have created, perhaps you do have the only correct answer; but is it relevant?

For what little it is worth: I think that if part of the Mesan Alignment went off to a distant part of the galaxy and had no contact with human space for hundreds of years, then re-establishing contact would be peaceful - unless and until the new Malign attempted to use force for whatever reason.

tlb wrote:You may have begun by just asking the question; but from the tone of your text, it appears that you believe you have the only correct answer.

Because I cant see any other option where the MA can recover their position. Unless they managed to cut the link completely between the outside universe and Darius they will be caught eventually and they will pay for it. The only way they survive with a chance of success long term is running.

In the scenario that you have created, perhaps you do have the only correct answer; but is it relevant?

Is anything we discuss on this forum relevant?

For what little it is worth: I think that if part of the Mesan Alignment went off to a distant part of the galaxy and had no contact with human space for hundreds of years, then re-establishing contact would be peaceful - unless and until the new Malign attempted to use force for whatever reason.

I agree with that, but I believe it will be peaceful because people will be too far from OB and Beowulf Strike to resort to war and more importantly the MA would be a real nation where a war will look daunting, after a certain point, war of conquest would be off the table except in very limited circumstances because they would see that conquering human space and imposing their will on humanity would take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat.

Sigs wrote:

tlb wrote:In the scenario that you have created, perhaps you do have the only correct answer; but is it relevant?

Is anything we discuss on this forum relevant?

For what little it is worth: I think that if part of the Mesan Alignment went off to a distant part of the galaxy and had no contact with human space for hundreds of years, then re-establishing contact would be peaceful - unless and until the new Malign attempted to use force for whatever reason.

I agree with that, but I believe it will be peaceful because people will be too far from OB and Beowulf Strike to resort to war and more importantly the MA would be a real nation where a war will look daunting, after a certain point, war of conquest would be off the table except in very limited circumstances because they would see that conquering human space and imposing their will on humanity would take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat.

To be clear, I do not think that being irrelevant disbars a discussion from being on the forum. But there are varying degrees: for instance a discussion of the tactics chosen at the Battle of Manticore or the likelihood of the prewar strategy meeting Haven's war goals is very much more relevant than a discussion of how big a freighter could be that did not use a compensator (a discussion that I had fun with). Of course there are various topics that are even less relevant; I am convinced that RFC will never write a scene where a fractional C vessel erases the life on a planet; so at that point how much effort should go into a discussion of something that is physically possible, but will never appear in the books? Another member suggested autonomous ships as a topic than will only appear when fanfic is permitted; so should we wait until then to discuss it? It seems that your scenario is complete and self-consistent; so is there any point in continuing to repeat the various points for and against?

As for whether this hypothetical outpost of the Malign would choose to live in peace because to do otherwise would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat"; you must have a more idealistic view of human nature than I have. It seems to me that people have gone into every war with the recognition that it would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Sigs wrote:It's not about gratitude, its about fighting a war against someone who never harmed you if its 300 or 400 years later. Why would a generation that was never personally affected by this attack go to war and suffer the economic and humanitarian issues associated with war to avenge an attack that happened a generation or two before, and do it against the leaders and people of a nation that were also not born during the initial incident?

Because they are a threat.

If some nation 500 or 600 years from now turns up and says "we come in peace" and means it, war is unlikely, even if they are revealed to be the descendants of the Alignment. The GA would demand explanations and accountability for those responsible for the atrocities, but in the end if they've turned around, redeemed themselves by creating an actually good society, the GA might consider the debt settled.

But that's not what you're saying they would be planning. They'd be planning on going to war. Even if there's a cold war brewing with another power and the leadership has changed, if this new state is proven to be preparing for war, the GA will have to find the funds to fight it.

The discussion seems to be whether it should pre-emptively strike. I don't think it will. At the very least, after this long, there would be a need to prove conclusively that they are the descendants of the Alignment who escaped. There would have been a few false leads over the centuries.

The whole philosophy of "The sins of the father" comes to mind.

Upon reappearing after so long, the GA may have to be able to definitively prove - not just to themselves but to the galaxy - that they are the perpetrator of past crimes.

But if, when, they reappear, wouldn't they do it under an alias? Slowly incorporating themselves into a society on a planet that's set up to receive them? They wouldn't simply say "We are the mysterious entity you've been looking for."

Isn't there a planet that's set up to receive the RF or something?

cthia wrote:Upon reappearing after so long, the GA may have to be able to definitively prove - not just to themselves but to the galaxy - that they are the perpetrator of past crimes.

But what is "they are the perpetrator" when none of the people involved are alive? Is it sufficient to be a successor state? Sometimes reparations are required of a successor state, like the Weimar Republic had to do for Imperial Germany. But it would be weird for someone today to demand of Austria because of a chain of successor states from the HRE from over 200 years ago.

I would expect there to be a question on what happened to the strategy and government. If the answer is "yeah, 52 years after the founding, we had the Hammer Revolution that deposed the Detweilers and installed a democratic government; it's taught in schools, so have a look" then there's nothing to be gained and a lot to lose by engaging in war.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Upon reappearing after so long, the GA may have to be able to definitively prove - not just to themselves but to the galaxy - that they are the perpetrator of past crimes.

But what is "they are the perpetrator" when none of the people involved are alive? Is it sufficient to be a successor state? Sometimes reparations are required of a successor state, like the Weimar Republic had to do for Imperial Germany. But it would be weird for someone today to demand of Austria because of a chain of successor states from the HRE from over 200 years ago.

I would expect there to be a question on what happened to the strategy and government. If the answer is "yeah, 52 years after the founding, we had the Hammer Revolution that deposed the Detweilers and installed a democratic government; it's taught in schools, so have a look" then there's nothing to be gained and a lot to lose by engaging in war.

Again, the whole stink of the sins of the father could wash over them. The philosophy is that the "consequences" of one generation passes to the next. And the next.* There must be a conscious attempt to break the cycle. You posit that attempt as fuel for the discussion. But how successful would it be? Will the sins of past generations, if they have not been properly atoned, sprout from dormant seeds? Remember, these people have to fit into a completely new society quite different than their own.

Also, with prolong, as I'm sure it's been broached, someone in the Detweiler line of clones may still be alive. If anyone is still alive who took part, they must be punished. The punishment is for mass murder. There is no statue of limitations for murder. The remnants of the Nazi war machine found that out the hard way. I can't see the arrogance and the feeling of superiority that is inherent in the MA allowing for a clone to be "sacrificed" as atonement.

Moreover, not just their attitude must change, but their ways. Wanting to better mankind is one thing. Committing the atrocities that they do to accomplish it is another. The MA's entire MO is a crime against nature. It is appalling. No civilized society will put up with it. That kind of thing always gets out. It is what is meant by the "consequences" of the sins of the father. Frankenstein will surely get out.

I don't think they can ever renounce who, and what, they are. They are as generationally indoctrinated as the Sollies. The new regime will be significantly frayed along the edges. The fraying will be caused by the incorporation of inferior cloth cut from the sins of the father.

What about their ingrained prejudice that has been taught for generations. It is hard to kill generations of taught racism. See present America. What about their feeling of superiority, but having to kowtow to the new norm? Superiority, imagined or real, will not take a back seat. Treating inferiors (imagined or real) as equals is akin to taking a back seat. Superiority has to be dispelled. See: The Nazi War Machine.

* It is interesting whether a clone of the original sin can be held accountable if that clone was not alive during past crimes. Wouldn't the fact that "clones" are still being produced signify an allegiance to the original Detweiler? If indeed the new regime has cast off the bondage of the sins of the father, wouldn't they want a new "Adam?" Hence, procreation would have to be done the old fashioned way. With hard work, sweat, and a bed.

But if they do pull it off, the GA would have to honor it, with stipulations of reparations and admitting their crimes to the galaxy. They will essentially be on some form of probation for the rest of their lives - being watched and scrutinized. Heck, the SEM gave the Sollies a chance to turn over a new leaf as well. And all of that guilty party was still alive. Mostly.

At any rate, I would imagine surrendering any war criminals would be a deal breaker -- a Helen of Troy by proxy and design, and a recipe and catalyst for war.

The new regime can't just talk the talk. They have to walk the walk. That's a very long mile.

cthia wrote:Again, the whole stink of the sins of the father could wash over them. The philosophy is that the "consequences" of one generation passes to the next. And the next.* There must be a conscious attempt to break the cycle. You posit that attempt as fuel for the discussion. But how successful would it be? Will the sins of past generations, if they have not been properly atoned, sprout from dormant seeds? Remember, these people have to fit into a completely new society quite different than their own.

I do not believe that the "sins of the father" has much hold between nations. Post WWII the Western Allies partnered with Germany and Japan (after both societies took steps to divorce their militaristic past) against the USSR and China, who had previously been part of the Allies. Governmental leaders are much more concerned with what is happening now or is expected to happen in the near future, than what happened in the distant past or might happen in the distant future. This view is short sighted, but usually there is enough present trouble to keep everyone fully occupied.

I believe that is what Sigs is positing, that enough time has passed that even a society with prolong has moved on. So if this newly encountered civilization seems peaceful, then the encounter should prove peaceful.

The title of this thread is Mesan Alignment post war.

It is NOT post war. The Alignment has only withdrawn to a planned and fortified position from which they will continue their campaign.
The ALIGNMENT has not declared war except in the sence that it is attacking Systems and multi-system Star Nations both by subversion of their governments and direct military attacks on varioius systems. Manticore, Grayson and Beowulf come directly to mind for DIRECT SNEAK ATTACKS.
You can call what they did to the League and to at least Republic of Haven whatever you would like but it boils down to taking control and directing goverments and their agents to destroy both the Star Nation and perverting (from the probable view of most of said nations's citizens) the morals and culture.
The Alignment intends to gain control of humanity and mold it both physicaly and philosoply to comply and submit to the Alignment's goals.

Although one portion of thier operations plan failed to accomplish all of it's goals, the League is broken and must try and rebuild some semblence of it's former self having removed the major flaws (if that is possible) and it is going to be considerably smaller. The only reason it survives at all is at the suffernece of Queen Elizabeth, President Prichard (and their Sr. Leadership) and plus the desire of many people including Honor Harrington to avoid what would be probably at least decades of wars and chaos if the Grand Aliance had been forced to crush both the SLN and a fair number of SL systems by direct warfare rathern than demonstrating that the SLN couldn't stand against them AND that the actual enemy was a 3rd party. Fortunatly, the leadershiip of the SLN and segments of the League Civilian Goverment believe the information about the Alignment having found that they had been heavily infiltrated and manipulated.

The Alignment isn't gone. The "steel fist in velvet glove" portion of the plan is now engaged. The RF is sort of or at least making a start in it's mandate to act as a rally point of disaffected or just scared systems both from the League and amoung the Independents and provide an self defence alliance againt the chaos a lot of people still see comming. The overt mission of the RF is to provide a point (and grow it) of "stability" and mutual aid. The covert mission is to infect the medical, educational, and most other segments of it's new members populations with the ongoing philosophy of The Alignment. They just won't call it that. I will be someting uplifting sounding, gradual, insidious and nurtured by the nipping off of voices that begin to wonder where these things are headed.

The Alignment has a fleet of massive Spider Drive warships designed to strike without warning and vanish (and not actualy be seen in any case) which can and will be used to apply pressure as the Alignment thinks it is needed and just not be there.

They have an entire world and system building it's war equipment and cloneing millions of "not-slaves" already fully indoctrinated in the Alignment's version of history and purpose. THEY are the champions of humanity. THEY are the defenders of the uplift. They will kill as many "normals" as required (and more as they don't really care about a few hundred thousand here or there- or millions for that matter) to advance their goals.

20 years. No problem. 50 years, also no problem. And the top leader ship of the Alpha Star Lines are the clone "sons" of Albrect who was the one in control for the last several decades and all of the "boys" have been his apprentices and deparment heads for decades. They planned the attack on Beowulf and they orchestrated the implimentation of Opperation Buccanneer though their moles in the SLN and SL government.

They are not going anywhere. They are going to come back and they want to hurt and destroy much more than just Beowulf and it's Medical -Ethical Code.



Their