Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment

SharkHunter wrote:How fun! Just returning to my own fun topic -- and saw the posts about using freighters as temporary LAC transports and tenders. So picture this --> keeping in mind that the whole topic started with a premise that we're WAY after Nemesis etc. so this is a student assignment for a grade, Keep in mind that our student's test case is early enough in the process that folks have an idea that the RMMN freighters are becoming scarcer, but Laccoon II hasn't been heard of "around these parts" of the League. A student turns in a plan for a "Laccoon II wormhole takeover" using your ideas, and proposes something like this:

So these "thought to be returning home" freighters make their last "scheduled stop"... but they are actually outbound from the GA. Freighter number One and Two and two are exactly as expected, there doing true cargo delivery. However, #3 is our temporary LAC carrier; #4 is downright nasty: what it's got in the holds, AKA a SAG-C and two Rolands. Needless to say, while the first two are doing 'the business', #3 and #4 are parked way out there in the system boondocks... aka dropping off cargo of a different kind, malice aforethought.

The freighters come, freighters go... A few days later, --ba da-boom!-- no visible wormhole transition or hyperspace arrival and a sunny dispositioned force commander says "we're sorry, your wormhole is now closed..." Why that idea makes me feel almost like putting on my evil galactic overlord badge just to watch the local OFS administrator and relatively insignificant SDF or minor-league FF forces go "holy s---!"

Thoughts on our sneaky student's plan?

While placing a DD or CA in a Freighter hold is possible, getting it in (and out) is not a simple prospect, and once it is in, you would probably need to shut down it's power systems because it cannot use the skin smart paint to radiate heat in a freighter belly. I would not expect a Sag C just to be able to jump from a standard freighter and yell "Surprise" and start kicking butt. I could be wrong, but it seems like an overly complicated evolution and places the ships in a situation where (if discovered) they could be easily destroyed simply by sneak attacking the freighter before the warship inside could evacuate.

A better suggestion would be the old Trumbull and Astra PRN AMCs - ships built as a Freighter with BC armor and weapons fits specifically for this kind of mission. The RMN AMCs might not have slid into the smelters yet, so they might be available to serve as well.

SharkHunter wrote:How fun! Just returning to my own fun topic -- and saw the posts about using freighters as temporary LAC transports and tenders. So picture this --> keeping in mind that the whole topic started with a premise that we're WAY after Nemesis etc. so this is a student assignment for a grade, Keep in mind that our student's test case is early enough in the process that folks have an idea that the RMMN freighters are becoming scarcer, but Laccoon II hasn't been heard of "around these parts" of the League. A student turns in a plan for a "Laccoon II wormhole takeover" using your ideas, and proposes something like this:

So these "thought to be returning home" freighters make their last "scheduled stop"... but they are actually outbound from the GA. Freighter number One and Two and two are exactly as expected, there doing true cargo delivery. However, #3 is our temporary LAC carrier; #4 is downright nasty: what it's got in the holds, AKA a SAG-C and two Rolands. Needless to say, while the first two are doing 'the business', #3 and #4 are parked way out there in the system boondocks... aka dropping off cargo of a different kind, malice aforethought.

The freighters come, freighters go... A few days later, --ba da-boom!-- no visible wormhole transition or hyperspace arrival and a sunny dispositioned force commander says "we're sorry, your wormhole is now closed..." Why that idea makes me feel almost like putting on my evil galactic overlord badge just to watch the local OFS administrator and relatively insignificant SDF or minor-league FF forces go "holy s---!"

Thoughts on our sneaky student's plan?

Be a heck of a lot of of effort to retrofit a freight's cargo door and bay to hold a CA + 2x DD.

Also, given that exactly zero of the wormholes that Manticore seized during the Lacoon actions had defenses on them - and so they had no problem simply transiting warships through them - what's the point of sneaking warships through the wormhole?

6/10 for style
1/10 for usefulness

ps the yard time it'd take to convert the freighter to smuggle warships probably probably exceeds the time it'd take those warships to simply travel to the target system through hyper. I don't rate surprise, against a system weak enough for that light a force to capture, as worth all that much time and effort.

Hmmm, about them style and usefulness points... Let's see if I can upgrade the difficulty. Also, remember that this "paper solution" would be very early in Laccoon-II, and that if HMAMC- Wayfarer's vast "cargo hold #1" could have easily swallowed Courageous CA-56 whole, or alternatively be large enough to transport "space station modules" through wormholes, they shouldn't need too much alteration to grapple and transport the warships. I'm assuming that Kizarvexis' merchant-hull based LAC tenders would be a much more difficult conversion.

Anyway, --snipping --
(then we'll see about those points...)

SharkHunter wrote: Key bit from earlier is... "The freighters come, freighters go... A few days later, --ba da-boom!-- and "we're sorry, your wormhole is now closed..."

Jonathan_S wrote:...rearranging
6/10 for style
1/10 for usefulness

...what's the point of sneaking warships through the wormhole?
...I don't rate surprise, against a system weak enough for that light a force to capture, as worth all that much time and effort.

Okay here goes, let's assume that the "SLN forces in system" are something like a formed up battlecruiser task-force group ala those at the Battle of the Prime/Ajay Hyper Bridge OR Hypatia, no Huskies. The SLN ship are not actively defending the wormhole, but they're capable of putting up a decent fight IF they knew RMN warships have just come through the wormhole. So the point of the surprise is to get deployed so as to cork the wormhole in the face of that larger force without getting caught. They want that SLN task force stuck in place vs. really trying to capture it.

[Maybe this is sort of like a Laccoon 1.5, sort of like Lion King 1.5?]

Does that scenario get our student more points?

The WH is at least several light hours from the system. If you are not right by the WH it doesn’t matter how much force you have somewhere else, they are going to control the WH before you can react.

How many of the SL controlled wormholes, including those that have some obligation OFS, have ever seen a CLAC? That's one big freighter. So, you gin up a set of papers from a neutral party to Flag the ship and come in to pay for passage. If your at all sneaky, you have an earlier force of warships come out of hyper way beyond the range of the local Astro Control's sensor net and, after a brief impeller burn coast in ballistic. What SL controlled bridge has anything like the sensor nets of the Juction or it's termini?

How busy are most of these bridges? What has been on the other side of them. If the CLAC isn't going to transship cargo at this end of the bridge what is the likelyhood that anybody is going to send a customs team. By the time the CLAC gets close enough (at relavively low power and operating scanning at commerical levels) it's going to be too late for Astro Control do do much particularly if they have accepted the payment and given the information for transit. CLAC isn't going to be following much through the bridge so whatever is on the other side won't have any warning and also typicaly at this point isn't going to be right on top of the inbound lane. And almost nobody has mines etc CLAC goes through, flushes it's LACs (and assalt shuttles/pinnices soon as it clears the terminus and takes control of Astro Control. Any SLN warship - and they arn't typicaly parking BC or certainly SDs on bridges so the LACs can swarm their targets- if any. The CLAC will already be at Battle Stations and they can be towing pods so they can make life very difficult for any SLN ship there- and then there is the LACs The following task force compleats the take over. Any merchant ship inbound on the bridge is going to be in a world of hurt having to deal with even one RMN LAC. Tiny ship, massive acceleration, ship-killer missles and a spinal grazer. The deceleration merchant is about to try and outrun a ship that has massive advantages in speed and maneuverability...and, of course, is armed.

Short window of oppertunity to pull this off but you can add to penetration and interdiction of bridges quite handily

Brigade XO wrote:How many of the SL controlled wormholes, including those that have some obligation OFS, have ever seen a CLAC? That's one big freighter. So, you gin up a set of papers from a neutral party to Flag the ship and come in to pay for passage. If your at all sneaky, you have an earlier force of warships come out of hyper way beyond the range of the local Astro Control's sensor net and, after a brief impeller burn coast in ballistic. What SL controlled bridge has anything like the sensor nets of the Juction or it's termini?

How busy are most of these bridges? What has been on the other side of them. If the CLAC isn't going to transship cargo at this end of the bridge what is the likelyhood that anybody is going to send a customs team. By the time the CLAC gets close enough (at relavively low power and operating scanning at commerical levels) it's going to be too late for Astro Control do do much particularly if they have accepted the payment and given the information for transit. CLAC isn't going to be following much through the bridge so whatever is on the other side won't have any warning and also typicaly at this point isn't going to be right on top of the inbound lane. And almost nobody has mines etc CLAC goes through, flushes it's LACs (and assalt shuttles/pinnices soon as it clears the terminus and takes control of Astro Control. Any SLN warship - and they arn't typicaly parking BC or certainly SDs on bridges so the LACs can swarm their targets- if any. The CLAC will already be at Battle Stations and they can be towing pods so they can make life very difficult for any SLN ship there- and then there is the LACs The following task force compleats the take over. Any merchant ship inbound on the bridge is going to be in a world of hurt having to deal with even one RMN LAC. Tiny ship, massive acceleration, ship-killer missles and a spinal grazer. The deceleration merchant is about to try and outrun a ship that has massive advantages in speed and maneuverability...and, of course, is armed.

Short window of oppertunity to pull this off but you can add to penetration and interdiction of bridges quite handily

Forget assault shuttles, what about specially designed sting ships optimized for space combat? Design something without cargo capabilities or aerodynamic capabilities. Their light weapons would be sufficient to deal merchies and unarmored habitats. Make them small, with the ability to stack nicely in a boatbay, and perhaps able to carry a viper or 2, for use against real targets.

Sans local defensive warship, such stingships should be able to sortie quickly from a merchie and get local control before the astrocontrol can react, can guard assaut shuttles with marines, and allow any LACs carried, to slowly exit their bays and form the outer picket.

Remember, LACs are real warships, with relatively large Wedges, and will need to maneuver nearly 1000 KM from it's mothership before it can raise it's Wedge, being fairly obvious in the process, while a sting ship can bring up it's wedge closer, and be confused for a normal shuttle.

Theemile wrote:Forget assault shuttles, what about specially designed sting ships optimized for space combat? Design something without cargo capabilities or aerodynamic capabilities. Their light weapons would be sufficient to deal merchies and unarmored habitats. Make them small, with the ability to stack nicely in a boatbay, and perhaps able to carry a viper or 2, for use against real targets.

Are you thinking of a pinnace (which has a wedge, compensator and weapon) or something even smaller (or bigger)? From On Basilisk Station, chapter 6:

She'd been tempted, in a way, to use one of her pinnaces, but she knew why—just as she knew that that particular bit of ostentation would have been one too many. So she'd taken her cutter, despite the fact that it moved far more slowly than a pinnace would have. Even the most efficient thrusters gave a much weaker acceleration than impellers, and a cutter was too small to mount an impeller drive. It was also too small for the inertial compensator needed to offset an impeller's brutal power, though its gravity generator could compensate for the lower gee-force of its thrusters. Yet despite Honor's own impatience and need to get this over, the trip was short, even at the cutter's relatively slow speed.

Hmm, Seems we are missing Recon Assets.

So refit a Shrike by taking out the Graser and fitting a large Optical suite in there. Upgrade the ESM / ECM / Stealth outfit and enhance the Endurance. Extra wisker lasers for covert comms with Ghost Riders etc.

Produce a package pod to take your LAC(R) and a couple of Ghost Rider drones that is easy for a Freighter to load / drop in deep space.

So need to get a good view of system X. Freighter makes a normal cargo run but drops the LAC(R) set off on the way in and before customs.

LAC(R) and GR's do their stuff and the LAC(R) is collected on the way out of the system by either the same Freighter or someone else depending on duration in system. The GRdrones suiciding into the sun or other suitable body if needed.

No HyperFoot print. Nothing incriminating on the Freighter....

Of course if the LAC(R) is detected the mission is blown,no Hyper capacity means it can't leave.

Still even without the Graser a LAC's ability to fight off an older DD or most patrol vessels in the verge/fringe is significant so it could probably buy enough time for a hasty pick up at the cost of burning the Freighter's papers/ID.

Post UH there are a lot of systems the GA needs to scout out with minimum costs. Freighters modified to run GR drones are probably going to have extra equipement to make customs officers itch. posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=10414#

Of course ONI has already done this but its on the Secret List so nobodies talking. posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=10414#

If I can pass a CLAC off as a freighter with a suitable ECM Fit then how many pods can I squeeze into a LAC Bay ?
Giving up a quarter of the LAC's for PODs, Pinnaces and Marines might be just the job for surprise hostile takeovers.

The CLAC heads in system and pops 72 LAC's each getting 2~4 pods of 12 mk16's while the CLAC keeps it's own pod cloud for self defense? That will take out a lot of single system fleets all on it's own. It only really has to control the target for area long enough anyway.

The onboard Marine component can be re-enforced using the bearth space of the LAC crews (112-72~40 LAC's with a crew of 8 so an extra 40*8 but marines so only aproximate. Add a few more Condor Pinances and crews as well in there. (1 LAC bay could handle 2 or 3 Condors, perhaps more but only after a refit. I will assume the LAC "shore crews" will be servicing the Condor's, overhauling the POD's etc. otherwise even more Marines but you will need to expand the armoury and Heavy Skinsuit storage.)

Should be able to secure the area long enough for reinforcements to come in system.

Mission balance between LAC's Pods and Marine Condors is of course a variable feast. A CLAC being dispatched on emergency system defense might want more pods and fewer LAC's if it's got Rolands or Sag-B's as an escort.

Thoughts. How many pods per bay, how many Condors. This is without permanent refit of course. Field Lash ups. What else would you want in those bays ?

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Forget assault shuttles, what about specially designed sting ships optimized for space combat? Design something without cargo capabilities or aerodynamic capabilities. Their light weapons would be sufficient to deal merchies and unarmored habitats. Make them small, with the ability to stack nicely in a boatbay, and perhaps able to carry a viper or 2, for use against real targets.

Are you thinking of a pinnace (which has a wedge, compensator and weapon) or something even smaller (or bigger)? From On Basilisk Station, chapter 6:

She'd been tempted, in a way, to use one of her pinnaces, but she knew why—just as she knew that that particular bit of ostentation would have been one too many. So she'd taken her cutter, despite the fact that it moved far more slowly than a pinnace would have. Even the most efficient thrusters gave a much weaker acceleration than impellers, and a cutter was too small to mount an impeller drive. It was also too small for the inertial compensator needed to offset an impeller's brutal power, though its gravity generator could compensate for the lower gee-force of its thrusters. Yet despite Honor's own impatience and need to get this over, the trip was short, even at the cutter's relatively slow speed.

Call it a Pinnance without the cargo hold or atmo capabilities. Scaled up laser (s), small crew, enough weapons to rip apart anything smaller than a warship; if it could carry a viper or 2 - even a squadron of these could threaten a light warship.