Mesan Alignment post war

cthia wrote:True, and poignant. However, I would imagine it'd only take one cat to make sure nobody forgets. And if that one Cat is a Memory Singer, she'll be singing daily. Even if there is NO representation, it still won't matter because the Cats would be spread about the population even more via bonding and they will not forget or let anyone else forget. Even IF the unfair and arguably biased rules of representation based on population will apply to the Cats.

Im not saying no one will forget, I am saying in 100 or 200 years no-one will be willing to start a war and it might not be possible. In that time, there would be changes, what if in 100 years the situation is tense and there is another cold war, wether it be with Haven, the SL or any number of the successor states doesn't matter, the RMN or the Grand Fleet if it still exists as a cohesive force might be tied down at home. If the GA and their 2,000 SD(P)'s are facing off a nation or a group of nations and their 2,000 SD(P)'s they wont be able to divert enough for an attack so out of obligation they double their fleet in a 10 year period put their economy under strain to support 4,000 SD(P)'s and 6,000 other ships only to have their opponents build more SD(P)'s as well. And that's a scenario where the majority of people who were affected by OB are still alive, what if it happens in 300 years where the vast majority of people who were adults during OB are dead, would they be willing to put their economy and nation at risk trying to fight the MA thousands of LY away from home while also having a powerfull enemy closer to home? Or even if they don't have an enemy, would they willingly weaken their home defences and offer an opportunity for someone to take over the GA while the GA is sending its fleet a year or more Round trip away from home.

This doesn't even account that the GA has to gather intelligence on the MA as it would do to send 2,000 SD(P)'s to attack the MA only to find out that they have a fleet 10 times that number.

Besides, Grayson and the SEM will always be joined at the hip. And Grayson will never forget, OR be unwilling to go to war alone. If need be, Grayson will lead the pack and step up in the place of any lacking government presently occupying the SEM. It isn't like they haven't had to be the more responsible of the two before. No matter what High Ridge-like government is running the "Occupied SEM." LOL

Grayson would be getting a new protector in 20-30 years, as someone who will be trained and educated from birth to be a protector he might be good and an extension of his father and his beliefs but he could also be the opposite and try to turn back the clock on a lot of the progress. This also applies to the Steadholders, the new generation could be more liberal, they could be more conservative or split down the middle. So this means there is no guarantee that the leaders of 100 years from now will be of the same beliefs as those today. Grayson might take OB as a sign from god that they have offended him and should return back to the old ways or they could make hunting down the MA their number one mission and maintain a special force at the ready for the moment they find the MA's base so they can go and trash it.

We must also consider that if Elizabeth is still at the helm it is all a moot point. She's bonded, and she will never forget her debt OR obligation to the Cats.

But can she overturn the decisions of Parliament? If 85% of Parliament have no desire to go to war with the MA for something that happened 100-150 before can she overrule them and go to war wether they like it or not?

Aside: Honor will definitely never forget her promise, debt, or responsibility to the Cats. She can start a war all on her own and everyone will follow her into the maelstrom again. She'll take on the MA alone in her tricked out SD with the Protector's Own backing her up. So, if the MA does drop off the face of the known galaxies indefinitely, indefinitely better be a very long time.

And if the MA pops up 100-150 years down the line with a force of 4,000 SD(P)'s what will the protector's Own do? More importantly, what if the next protector is not as close to Honor and removes her from the Protectors Own? A lot can happen in 10 years so in 100 years the SEM and the Graysons might be enemies or they can be amalgamated into one nation with Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani Empire or it can fall anywhere in between.

But we all know the MA won't stay hidden, or they would never have come out of the closet in the first place.

But their plan is now in shambles, so if they had someone with two braincells to rub together they would be looking for a way to salvage the plan or create a new plan.

Plus, time is working against them as well, trying to keep everyone fired up to their now very aging cause. Especially since the original instigators carrying the torch and the hatred will be long dead.

They managed it for 600 years and managed to make the plan a little more f*cked up every generation or so, so I dont see then struggling with this.

At any rate, I understand what you're asking Sig's. As we all, you don't think it will happen either. This is simply a what if? And it's an important what if that needed asking. As I said upstream, indefinitely doesn't have to be that long at all to benefit the MA via complacency of it's enemies.

It's not even complacency, it could be just circumstances.

munroburton wrote:
Some might well have been resigned to the prospects of OFS conquest until Manticore intervened. I do not understand why you think they would not bear a measure of gratitude towards the SEM for averting that fate, even if they were "used" to it.

It's not about gratitude, its about fighting a war against someone who never harmed you if its 300 or 400 years later. Why would a generation that was never personally affected by this attack go to war and suffer the economic and humanitarian issues associated with war to avenge an attack that happened a generation or two before, and do it against the leaders and people of a nation that were also not born during the initial incident?

They may have a better chance during the lifetime of the current generation, but then reality sets in, the MA is far away and the GA knows absolutely nothing about them, no intelligence on their industry, economy, military, technology, population or general geography. Then there is the question of the situation at the time, if the SL is flexing or another nation is causing issues the GA might not be able to dispatch too much in the way of a fighting force when there is a threat nearby.

They're going to object when/if Manticore finds the assholes who tried to keep them heading into OFS' arms?

Not object, but there is a difference of being pissed and trying to do something about it. Trying to do something about it means you have to organize a fleet that will travel months or years from your bases to attack a nation you know nothing about, a nation that might figure out you are coming and be ready. A nation that probably has intelligence on you and know what you are bringing to the party and who is in charge. Its one thing to want to do something about it and another to spend trillions upon trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives trying to avenge an attack 100/200/300/500 years in the past.

One of the issues the SLN had was that there was a hige lump of superannuated officers who occupied the entire upper strata of the force. If Grayson does that they will have the same problem, of people in every senior leadership slot whose defining experiance was a war thst ended 120 years ago. Tell me how that ends?

Sigs wrote:

But we all know the MA won't stay hidden, or they would never have come out of the closet in the first place.

But their plan is now in shambles, so if they had someone with two braincells to rub together they would be looking for a way to salvage the plan or create a new plan.

Plus, time is working against them as well, trying to keep everyone fired up to their now very aging cause. Especially since the original instigators carrying the torch and the hatred will be long dead.

They managed it for 600 years and managed to make the plan a little more f*cked up every generation or so, so I dont see then struggling with this.

At any rate, I understand what you're asking Sig's. As we all, you don't think it will happen either. This is simply a what if? And it's an important what if that needed asking. As I said upstream, indefinitely doesn't have to be that long at all to benefit the MA via complacency of it's enemies.

It's not even complacency, it could be just circumstances.

Whether or not this is a possibility, does not matter if it is not the story that RFC chooses to write. So maybe you are correct that the Malign could pull it off; but I am going to wait for the next book and see what the real story is to be.

Why would I want the Malign to come up with a perfect plan, when I want them to lose?

SharkHunter wrote:
First. there are enough alpha lines both within and without "the onion" who seem to still have that human frailty known as a conscience. One of them (O'Hanaran) is primed to do maximum damage outside because she's also in the business of publication. Hmmm... what if our dear reporter friend -- who likely does NOT have a suicide protocol built in -- gets within range of a treecat and does NOT drop dead>

I might have missed it, but isn't she a alpha line but might not know it, there might be a lot of alpha lines but some of them, even in the core systems would have separated from the onion through the generations or maybe had a generation that was not promising and was dropped by the onion only for a later generation to show promise but it would be too late.

Within the onion... is Zack McBride going to stay loyal, or what if one of the three clones recognize that dear ole papa was bats--t crazy there at the end, and maybe we went too far with the whole "blow up orbital habitats" thing... and now the unholy trio aren't unified but become competitive in the "there can be only one..." mold, but they've all been in different departments, so to say. Does Papa's vision hold together or... ?

That's how I would see them getting out of dodge, some of them go crazier and one or two decide to take charge by any means necessary and that might be assassination. The MA has poisoned the well within the galaxy, that's a given, and their end goal is now unlikely because their strategy depended on a lot of wildcards that did not go their way. They can pack it in, move far away and come back in 600 years with intent on forcing the rest of humanity into their way of life or they can build their perfect society away from the rest of humanity.

Galactically, let's assume that HH, Grayson, Beowulf, and the treecats... pointed in the right direction by the next trio of Cachat, Zilwicki, and Winton, R... + Harahap... get wind of and arrive in one of the weaker RF systems where one of the"twelve heads" does know about the source of the MAlign... and said fleet puts an "fleet of SD(P) size pulsars to said politico(s) ear and says "spill the beans"... [By the way, I recognize the Andermani and Haven, plus the Maya sector as full partners in the hunt and GA... but I listed the entities with the biggest reasons for system scale revenge because of Oyster Bay and whatever we call Beowulf's tragedy]

And finally, with Palane on Mesa and everyone knowing that those left on Mesa weren't in on or complicit in all of the genetic slavery shenanighans, do you really think that Torch isn't going to have their day to play?

I think its very unlikely that the RF will remain clear of the MA in the eyes of the GA and I think its even less likely that in their haste the MA didn't miss something in Mesa, or one or more of the ships carrying Alpha Lines wasn't captured with the prisoners intact and willing to talk, I mean the likelihood of them not having suicide protocol is high since they had GAUL agents with them to kill them to prevent capture. Houdini was so rushed that there are likely plenty of pieces of evidence and pissed off alpha lines who didn't die but would have if they were where they were told to be.

So likelihood of Darius not being discovered and the RF not being linked to the MA rather quickly is remote in my mind.

tlb wrote:Whether or not this is a possibility, does not matter if it is not the story that RFC chooses to write. So maybe you are correct that the Malign could pull it off; but I am going to wait for the next book and see what the real story is to be.

Why would I want the Malign to come up with a perfect plan, when I want them to lose?

I'm not saying I can correct it or even that it needs correcting, I am asking of a scenario where they escape and how that affects the galaxy in General and the GA members specifically.

Sigs wrote:It's not about gratitude, its about fighting a war against someone who never harmed you if its 300 or 400 years later. Why would a generation that was never personally affected by this attack go to war and suffer the economic and humanitarian issues associated with war to avenge an attack that happened a generation or two before, and do it against the leaders and people of a nation that were also not born during the initial incident?

Because they are a threat.

If some nation 500 or 600 years from now turns up and says "we come in peace" and means it, war is unlikely, even if they are revealed to be the descendants of the Alignment. The GA would demand explanations and accountability for those responsible for the atrocities, but in the end if they've turned around, redeemed themselves by creating an actually good society, the GA might consider the debt settled.

But that's not what you're saying they would be planning. They'd be planning on going to war. Even if there's a cold war brewing with another power and the leadership has changed, if this new state is proven to be preparing for war, the GA will have to find the funds to fight it.

The discussion seems to be whether it should pre-emptively strike. I don't think it will. At the very least, after this long, there would be a need to prove conclusively that they are the descendants of the Alignment who escaped. There would have been a few false leads over the centuries.

tlb wrote:
snip...

but I am going to wait for the next book and see what the real story is to be.

...snip

Unfortunately some of us are of an age where waiting is not an option and we will sooner than later not be able to read what happens next.

tlb wrote:but I am going to wait for the next book and see what the real story is to be.

George J. Smith wrote:Unfortunately some of us are of an age where waiting is not an option and we will sooner than later not be able to read what happens next.

I am 5 years older than RFC, but expect to be able to read the next book (I keep hoping to see Eric Flint move it to the group with a planned publishing date).

In the meantime, I have started rereading the original books in an attempt to explore the reasons that I became interested in Honor and her exploits (I have just started SVW). Although the books after the Battle of Manticore are interesting, I think the earlier ones are the heart of the series.

Somehow I don't see the Alignment either developing a real conscience nor giving up on it's plan to be the Masters of the Universe.
You know, the final arbiters of the manipulated uplift of humanity in the Detweiler Plan.

If at first you don't succeed, kill as many as nessisary to erase you tracks and blame someone else for it. Repeat as often as needed.